To think this couple's attitude has no place in modern society?

[Georama]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10419543/Christian-couple-ban-gay-man-partner-buying-dream-650-000-sexuality.html

A church-going wife who banned a gay man and his ITV producer partner from buying her £650,000 Surrey home has hit back in the row and insisted they are just sticking to their beliefs.

Luke Whitehouse and Lachlan Mantell were stunned when they were told that they could not buy the three-bedroom home because the Christian owners didn't want to sell to 'two men in a partnership.'

Honestly, they should be ashamed of that text. I hope no estate agent will work with them ever again.

And yet plenty of Christians manage not to act like these people.

While all still bowing their heads to the book that contains the offending homophobia

[quote Innocenta]@SantaClawsServiette It's not a failure to "Act like a grown up" to be distressed or angered by homophobia, and to want to respond to it actively. The very fact that you're this willing to dismiss it in such terms is disturbing.

@BoredZelda You're disturbingly willing to tolerate discrimination against gay men and lesbians. Giving lip service to it not being what you really think actually doesn't mean anything to us, you know. I notice that you use exactly the same tired homophobic trope that others on this thread have been using - claiming that gay and lesbian posters don't understand / are stupid / can't read / can't grasp matters. You couldn't be more wrong; indeed, it is you who comes to this with not only a shallow mindset but a failure of empathy. I would encourage you to meditate on what it's like to experience homophobia, but I fear such exhortations would be useless.

@WindInTheWillows7 So do you think society should tolerate the implementation of such views? What about, say, an attempt to reintroduce legal slavery? For any disturbing view, you can find someone who sincerely holds it. Society rightly limits how people can act on their views. [/quote]
I think you'll find there are plenty of gay and lesbian adults who agree with me.

Think through the implications here. What are you going to do? Tell people they have to sell their belongings to anyone, that they can't choose how to dispose of their own property? What are the implications there for the existence of private property? Tell people they are only allowed to think certain things, or only allowed to express certain ideas? How do you think that is compatible with liberal democracy? Don't you see that kind of attitude could very easily be used to suppress any view that isn't mainstream?

@MummyWoodentop

I think people are saying it is the bigotry that is bad - so - should we ban bigotry, surely one man's bigoted comment is another person's truth.

Does that work universally? If I were to say that, say, all members of a particular race or religion are subhuman and don't deserve to live, would there be any circumstances where that could be true?

@Artichokeleaves

Well obviously they do have a place in modern society, they're living in it and it's ridiculous to pretend that society doesn't include people with these beliefs. It does. Those beliefs don't get changed by tutting and reporting to the police for wrong think, that just makes the divide of belief harder and them angrier. Having beliefs you may not agree with is not a crime.

If you discover that your seller is prejudiced and has incompatible views and doesn't want to sell to you - you shrug and go buy from someone else, because life is too short. You might think your seller is an unpleasant twit: that's not against the law. This whole punish and silence the wrongthinkers and be prejudiced against them really doesn't help anyone or solve anything. It's just prejudice in a different form.

I'm LGBT btw.

Yep. This.

People have different views. We don't live in a communist state where we are told what we just think and how we must act. Also worth understanding that this a private couple making decisions about their property. If it was a business actively promoting that they don't sell to gay people that would be completely different and unlawful.

Not all Christian's hold the same beliefs as this couple. I certainly don't. It wouldn't matter a jot to me if a gay couple purchased our house. I have refused to sell a previous house to someone before who was rude to me and exceptionally arrogant. I'm entitled to do that. My house. My decision.

@Isaw3ships

‘ So are you saying that you live by every single rule in the Old Testament, without exception?shock’ *@AlexaShutUp*

I don’t live by ANY rule of any religion as I’m an Atheist who believes in science and not fairytales.
I’m not sure how you got I follow any Testament from what I’ve been posting!
Even as a child going to a church school and going to church I could see the hypocrisy and contradictions and nonsense in religion, and do t get me started on the misogyny and paedophilia in so many faiths.

It's quite rude to call religion "fairy tales". Tolerance goes both ways

Think through the implications here. What are you going to do? Tell people they have to sell their belongings to anyone, that they can't choose how to dispose of their own property? What are the implications there for the existence of private property?

Mostly I'm going to expect people to comply with the relevant law, which is referenced above, and which does indeed affect how people dispose of their property.

You're disturbingly willing to tolerate discrimination against gay men and lesbians. Giving lip service to it not being what you really think actually doesn't mean anything to us, you know. I notice that you use exactly the same tired homophobic trope that others on this thread have been using - claiming that gay and lesbian posters don't understand / are stupid / can't read / can't grasp matters. You couldn't be more wrong; indeed, it is you who comes to this with not only a shallow mindset but a failure of empathy. I would encourage you to meditate on what it's like to experience homophobia, but I fear such exhortations would be useless.

Nothing homophobic about any of my comments. And you have absolutely no idea what my experiences are so the attempted condescension and supposed insult is entirely misplaced.

What I do know is, regardless of how abhorrent I find someone's views, I will always defend their right to say it. And so should you, because next time, it might be people coming along to silence you on something you firmly believe. For example, someone might come along and tell you that calling people homophobic (especially when they aren't) is actually really problematic and you should be very careful about doing it and in fact refusing to sell your home to a homophobic person is unlawful. I'm going to guess you wouldn't be happy with that.

Once again because you really do seem to struggle with the concept, defending the action is not the same as defending the act.

Mostly I'm going to expect people to comply with the relevant law, which is referenced above, and which does indeed affect how people dispose of their property

Except it actually doesn't.

@Migrainesbythedozen

I think this needed to be called out, and the homophobic couple needed and deserved to be publicly shamed and held up to public ridicule.

Would you like to bring back the ‘stocks’ as well

The homophobes got their chance to have their say in the Mail and have just gone with no regrets, we were right so IMHO have waived any right to sympathy.

‘ It's quite rude to call religion "fairy tales". Tolerance goes both ways’

Perhaps, but I’ve always loved a good bible story, they have some right ripping yarns. Floods, plagues, pillars of salt, men sacrificing their own children, raping their own children, cheating on their wives…
Still, the difference is, although my opinion is that it is all fiction and no man was ever thousands of years old and no-one ever spoke from a burning bush I wouldn’t come front a Christian and tell them that.
I respect their right to believe. And I wouldn’t ever tell them that their belief was wrong, as they are opposite to mine, and then refuse them any kind of service.

@BoredZelda As a lesbian I have every right to call people homophobic when they say homophobic things.

@Innocenta yup! To totally agree. It annoys me when straight people try to tell gay people when they should and shouldn’t find something homophobic.

Is the reason for the outrage the some fact that the declined buyers were gay, or that the sellers were not willing to sell to people whose situation was against their principles?

If you are a Remainder would you sell to a Brexiteer?
If you are a liberal and a potential buyer turned up in a Boris is best t-shirt would you decline their offer?

I've thought about it plenty, thanks, @SantaClawsServiette - haven't changed my mind about all the bigotry being spewed in this thread. Your justification is no better than anyone else's.

As a lesbian I have every right to call people homophobic when they say homophobic things.

At the moment you do (albeit your opinion can also be way off mark) You should be glad that people fought for your right to do that and be very wary of ever suggesting someone who has an opposing opinion isn't allowed to say that too. I remember in my lifetime your freedom of expression wasn't what it was today. Aren't you glad people fought for that to be ok?

It annoys me when straight people try to tell gay people when they should and shouldn’t find something homophobic

It annoys me when people jump straight to a -phobia or -ism, when they have no idea who they are talking to.

@BoredZelda

As a lesbian I have every right to call people homophobic when they say homophobic things.

At the moment you do (albeit your opinion can also be way off mark) You should be glad that people fought for your right to do that and be very wary of ever suggesting someone who has an opposing opinion isn't allowed to say that too. I remember in my lifetime your freedom of expression wasn't what it was today. Aren't you glad people fought for that to be ok?

This isn't a freedom of expression issue. But if you're so keen to focus on that, then by all means keep telling me that I'm unreasonable to say you're being homophobic (even though, actually, you are being...), and I shall assert my freedom to repeatedly tell you that attacking a lesbian for commenting on homophobia is in itself pretty disgusting.

The received theological wisdom is that the bit in Romans they cited means 'don't have an orgy' and not 'homosexuality is wrong'.

Even if this wisdom is incorrect, it's certainly the case that Jesus never said anything on the topic.

Well, no, it isn't the received theological wisdom. Even among people who aren't evangelicals. There are some people who think that, which is a different thing all together.

The idea that what Jesus said is valid and anything else isn't, or even that only what is explicitly stated is important, is also not the received wisdom.

Christian teachings on sexuality are part of a larger set of beliefs around the purpose of sex, and even the body in general. Historically they are quite strict, for everyone, ideally people are only meant to have sex if they are willing that a pregnancy could result, only with one spouse, and no sex during times like fast days, lent, and so on. Celibacy being the rule for anyone who, for whatever reason, doesn't marry, being the expectation.

Not to say that people have ever been very good at all that, but it's a coherent perspective that fits together with a lot of different teachings about the body rooted in both the Bible and also the philosophical tradition Christianity comes out of.

Evangelicals can have an odd tendency to pick and choose from that, but it's just not accurate to say that the real theological understanding is what you'd expect to hear from some of the Jesus seminar type people.

[quote Isaw3ships]@Innocenta yup! To totally agree. It annoys me when straight people try to tell gay people when they should and shouldn’t find something homophobic.[/quote]
This sounds nice, but it's pretty easy to see that the principle is ultimatly kind of bullshit.

There are women who claim certain things are sexism, and they are objectively wrong. There are non-white people who claim certain things are racism, and they are objectively wrong.

There are gay people who claim that certain things are homophobic, and they are objectively wrong.

And there are all kinds of reasons people can be wrong about these things. Sometimes it's because they have experienced those things and assume a situation is the same, but are incorrect. Sometimes it's just because they've misunderstood the situation. Sometimes it's because they have an over-broad definition. And then there are legitimate disagreements about what constitutes such things, someone like Robin DiAngelo thinks pretty much everyone who disagrees with her is a racist, many people disagree with her views including many (most?) non-white people.

INterestingly no one in the thread has really said their views aren't homophobic, what's been said again and again is that society can't and shouldn't try and restrict people's thinking and also that it's important to make a fair bit of room to allow people to live according to their views, with a light hand restricting that.

Given the relative youth of the gay rights movement you'd think the importance of that would be understood, as it would never have got off the ground otherwise.

It annoys me when straight people try to tell gay people when they should and shouldn’t find something homophobic.

I don't think there's many people itt who are saying this isn't homophobia though. They refused to sell them their house cos they're gay. Of course it's homophobic. Their homophobia is couched in hundreds of years of discrimination and brainwashing. It's an abhorrent way to think but I'm simultaneously revolted by, and ever so slightly sympathetic to people who have fallen for this nonsense and I accept that the church has had about 2000 years worth of experience on having one over on people's logical processes.

I'm not defending these people or their views. I don't care if people give them shit they invited it upon themselves. If no-one thought like this the world would be a far superior place to live

@BoredZelda

As a lesbian I have every right to call people homophobic when they say homophobic things.

At the moment you do (albeit your opinion can also be way off mark) You should be glad that people fought for your right to do that and be very wary of ever suggesting someone who has an opposing opinion isn't allowed to say that too. I remember in my lifetime your freedom of expression wasn't what it was today. Aren't you glad people fought for that to be ok?

Are you really trying to tell gay people we should be fighting for people’s rights to be homophobic towards us? And you’re comparing their so called right to do that to our fight for equality and to not be discriminated against? Do you have any idea how offensive that is?

Stop equating homophobia to a mere difference of opinion or free speech, it’s minimising it and it’s effects.

‘ It annoys me when straight people try to tell gay people when they should and shouldn’t find something homophobic

It annoys me when people jump straight to a -phobia or -ism, when they have no idea who they are talking to.’

If you don’t think this couple are homophobic for refusing to allow a gay couple to even view the house they’re selling while referring the potential buyers to offensive bible passages telling them that they have given into ‘shameful lusts’ and have ‘depraved’ minds then I guess that’s your look out.
But as they are quite literally quoting homophobic bible passages at a gay couple, I think it’s fine to call them homophobic bigots.

@SantaClawsServiette I'm not trying to restrict anyone's thinking. Stop strawmanning.

I'm saddened that there's so many homophobic views still around on this, but also sadly not surprised.
What people always fail to grasp is that you are allowed to think what you like, but what you CAN'T do, rightly, is discriminate against people for protected characteristics such as being gay.
Like this couple have.

If you are a Remainder would you sell to a Brexiteer?
I voted Remain, and yes I would.

If you are a liberal and a potential buyer turned up in a Boris is best t-shirt would you decline their offer?
No, but I'd reserve the right to think you must be a massive knob