To contact the school about this tomorrow

[cornbeeflegs]

My eldest DD (13) goes swimming with one of her friends on a Wednesday evening, has done since last August, at the local leisure centre. She goes straight from school to her friend's house, has dinner, does homework, etc and then they go to the pool for 8pm, spend an hour in the open swim session, then she gets dropped back here by one of friend's parents.
She came back very subdued this evening, thought maybe she'd had a fallout with friend or something, eventually she opened up and said she'd got into trouble with one of her teachers. Asked her which lesson it was in and what had happened, then she said it was at swimming.
Apparently DD and friend had been waiting for their lift home after swim session when one of their teachers had seen them, recognised them as being from her school because they were in uniform, and then proceeded to tell them off for not wearing it as per school rules, even though they weren't at school they were still "representing the school" by wearing it. She's asked them both to see her first thing tomorrow morning.
Usually I'm supportive of school and if my children transgress the rules then they face the consequences. But surely this is too harsh?

There is definitely something else to it

This is ridiculous. I think if she wants to make an issue about such a trivial matter, I'd be at the very least asking the school to ensure she does not approach pupils outside school hours.

This is ridiculous, my DSs (15&13) often stay in their uniform, they do lots of sports and after school things and school don't allow them to change before leaving the site unless they have special permission. Tonight for instance we decided to get fish and chips so they have just been to collect it still in their uniforms, they will probably change into their loungers/pjs now but wouldn't bother changing into a different set of clothes. They wear white shirts to school so they are never worn a 2nd day anyway.

Such an over the top punishment IMO! I would definitely speak to them and my DCs would definitely not be doing any lines!

I'd try to get in touch with the teacher either face to face or phone call. I'd ask about the incident and the girls behaviour. If it really is what DD said and nothing more I'd tell the teacher in no uncertain terms that DD won't be doing lines or detention. Read up on the school's uniform policy as well and see if you can find this ridiculous rule anywhere. If it's not made public and children/parents aware of it, then they can't punish for it and I'd also go over her head to check it really is a rule and the rest of SLT/the head know about it and what sanctions are considered acceptable.

If it was behaviour related then DD will have to put up with the consequences and try to find a way to have her out of uniform when she's out by herself.

I don't think the teacher is picking on your dd, I think she's carrying out the school policy. She's probably been told by those above her it has to be enforced strictly. I think a lot of schools have similar policies but it often doesn't get enforced. I don't think teachers at my dcs' school would bother to enforce it. I would probably just roll my eyes but not intervene as it seems that's just the policy of your dcs' school. It's likely to say so in the uniform policy. I know most of mumsnet would probably try and fight it tooth and nail but I don't think it's worth it as it will just cause your dd stress and embarrassment.

I don't think schools let parents decide whether the kids do lines and detention.

How ridiculous. What sort of school is this OP?
There's a stupid fixation in uniform in some quarters atm when really relationships, wellbeing and recovery should be the focus.
Teachers don't really help themselves with this kind of nonsense. Why would anyone respect that kind of authoritarian nonsense? Lines even ffs. Too much Mallory Towers read by someone there. They tend to pick on the ones that they know will put up with it. Bullying, really.
Tell your daughter not to let the bastards grind her down.

Find out the other side of the story. What were they really doing?

Were they bringing the school into disrepute for example?

But if its just a jobsworth and the kids stories are true then yes I would be complaining about it.

Sorry I've read your update

is DD unusual in staying in her uniform after school, do any of your children do same

no all the kids where I live do the same including my 13 year old

is it really unreasonable that uniform was not 'immaculate' when seen

outside school hours I think its none of the school's business

does the teacher have a point about school image

unless they were behaving badly the teacher is being completely OTT

is teacher just bullying my DD and friend or am I being too sensitive here

bullying is a strong word but you are not being too sensitive. I wouldn't be happy either.

Parents need to stand up and end this crap.

They are not police officers or in the military where upholding standards of the organisation they are in matters off duty!

Parents are forced to pay for the uniform, the school doesn’t own it. They are CHILDREN.

I’d be quite forcefully calling to speak to this teacher and telling her to get stuffed.

No way would I let her sanction my DC or make them feel they’d done something wrong.

LemonTreeGrove - IME they do in specific circumstances, I have been in on 2 occasions to discuss detentions and said I did not agree with the reasons behind those 2 specifically, the teachers agreed and removed the detention. If the DD is required to write the lines to take into school then the parent can decide to not allow them to do it presumably.

If the girls were behaving badly, swearing etc then it's a totally different scenario, if they were as the DD described just stood there waiting looking a bit scruffy then nothing should have been said.

These days I wouldn't assume the school/teacher is always right. This trend for petty nit picking rules that we are currently living with means rationality and proportionality have gone right out of the window. Children are presumed guilty until proven innocent. I am so glad my DDs have aged out of the system. I hope that if they ever have DC the pendulum will have swung back, or failing that they will move to a country that isn't obsessed with appearance over merit.

@CrabbyAggie

Parents need to stand up and end this crap.

They are not police officers or in the military where upholding standards of the organisation they are in matters off duty!

Parents are forced to pay for the uniform, the school doesn’t own it. They are CHILDREN.

I’d be quite forcefully calling to speak to this teacher and telling her to get stuffed.

No way would I let her sanction my DC or make them feel they’d done something wrong.

Please don’t recommend that people forcibly call teachers

Also lines? Really? I haven’t heard of a school setting these since the 90s

And the fact that a teacher allegedly would not only call out the kids and tell of the punishment makes me think this thread is utter bullshit her

I would definitely be sending an email questioning this reaction and consequence (punishment!) Im impressed they put their ties back on to be fair!

"I’d be quite forcefully calling to speak to this teacher and telling her to get stuffed".
And people wonder teachers are leaving the profession in droves and why it's REALLY hard to recruit (and then moan because their child is being taught Maths by someone without a Maths degree etc!).

OP, what is the school's policy on uniform? Have you looked? Was the teacher (Assistant Head I think you said?) simply doing her job by sticking to policy, or is she making rules up? If the former, it's the school's policy you need to be addressing. If the latter, it's the teacher's conduct.

I'm intrigued by your daughter choosing to turn up with her shirt untucked to a meeting triggered by allegedly incorrect use of uniform though... rather ironic and not exactly a smart choice!! If you are going to put in a complaint I'd strongly recommend you hearing the teacher's side of it first. I've seen so many parents rush in to full-on complaint mode and then end up really embarrassed because their little darling had actually behaved really badly and told a pack of lies to their parents! Not saying that's what is going to happen here, but definitely worth hearing the other side to the story!

Ugh soooooooo petty.

When I was at school the rule was we had to have full proper uniform or make sure there was no badge on show so the school wasn't identifiable - as it was the badge that made us 'in uniform'. I agree this sounds ridiculous though, no-one I going to care after swimming.

OP have you found the school uniform policy yet and seen whether there are any rules about the wearing of uniform outside school?

I don't think you are being unreasonable and it isn't unusual for pupils to go to afterschool activities in uniform nor for that uniform not to be immaculate. The teacher sounds unreasonable. But I think the action you take depends very much on whether the school has an unreasonable policy or whether the teacher is pushing her own agenda.

If there are rules that cover this, I would help DD write the lines and hand them in, tell her you disagree with the rule but sometimes you just have to suck things up and come up with a plan for her for swimming so she doesn't risk it again. Then I would make a complaint to the school about the pettiness of the rule, the lack of consistency in enforcement given that many pupils are in school in a worse state of dress, the additional burden the rule places on students and families given the busy schedules that kids have and point out that such hardline and petty rule enforcement undermines student teacher relationships and trust between the school and parents. I would also consider contacting the parent governors to discuss concerns about the additional impact on families if the school is going to be hardline on this sort of thing and what they can do in a governing role to ensure pupil welfare is paramount.

If there isn't a rule on uniform outside of school I would make an immediate complaint about the teacher - both about intimidating your DC outside of school and about making them miss lessons to try to push her own agenda instead of school policy. And I would give DD a note to give to the teacher saying you have forbidden her completing the lines pending the outcome of your complaint.

When I got home from work, dd had already done half of the lines. I told her not to do any more because she was getting in a stress about not having done her homework. So I told her that was more important, and I would send a note with her lines explaining why they hadn’t been finished.

I have asked her several times whether there was anything else going on that she hasn’t told me about and she assures me not. I have no reason to disbelieve her, she’s always told the truth about good and bad things occurring at school before, so I see no reason for this time to be different.

@surreygirl1987

"I’d be quite forcefully calling to speak to this teacher and telling her to get stuffed". And people wonder teachers are leaving the profession in droves and why it's REALLY hard to recruit (and then moan because their child is being taught Maths by someone without a Maths degree etc!).

OP, what is the school's policy on uniform? Have you looked? Was the teacher (Assistant Head I think you said?) simply doing her job by sticking to policy, or is she making rules up? If the former, it's the school's policy you need to be addressing. If the latter, it's the teacher's conduct.

I'm intrigued by your daughter choosing to turn up with her shirt untucked to a meeting triggered by allegedly incorrect use of uniform though... rather ironic and not exactly a smart choice!! If you are going to put in a complaint I'd strongly recommend you hearing the teacher's side of it first. I've seen so many parents rush in to full-on complaint mode and then end up really embarrassed because their little darling had actually behaved really badly and told a pack of lies to their parents! Not saying that's what is going to happen here, but definitely worth hearing the other side to the story!

She didn't realise her shirt had come untucked!

My kids are preschool and primary but I’m already mad about secondary uniform 😄 I remember eye rolling when I was at school being told about representing the school, keeping blazers on in the July heat etc etc. Totally unrealistic for the workplace - teachers swanning around in floaty summer dresses for example.

So my question is, what happens if you don’t agree to the uniform policy - I assume you have to sign something to say you will ensure your children abide by it? I’m just going to not sign it. Then what? If you don’t have to sign anything then I will stop worrying about it and tell them to get over it, if the need arises 😄

YANBU OP and hope your daughter doesn’t lose any sleep tonight!

Oops sorry, missed that the meeting has been and gone!

Oh bore off!

What a horrible jobsworth. I never used to get changed as soon as I
got home when I was in high school. If we needed shopping etc after school, I would've been in my uniform. I'd have avoided teachers in public like the plague because who wants to awkwardly speak to them outside of school when you're a child but I doubt any of them would've shouted at me in bloody Tesco for not wearing it 'correctly'.