AIBU regarding parenting techniques today?

[Jupitersmoonandstars]

So, I have NC because I know this will be controversial and I dont want it linked to my other posts.
When I was a child, whenever I behaved badly, there was a very clear consequence. My parents were not particularly strict, however, they certainly didnt ignore bad behaviour or indeed even try to understand where I was coming from.
Life was simple enough.
We had robust boundaries and expectations, and if we didnt adhere to 'the rules' we would be punished, either by removal of privileges or time out and yes, there were occasions when we were smacked.
Bad behaviour was not acceptable and would never go by unnoticed.

Now as an adult, parenting has changed. Parents are told to ignore the bad behaviour and reward the good behaviours. Parents are encouraged to understand why their children are behaving badly and to put preventative measures in place to make sure it doesnt happen in the first place, but I dont understand how this type of parenting teaches self control.
Children do learn by example, I agree, but if there are no tangible consequences for bad behaviour, and we simply focus on rewarding desirable behaviours whilst ignoring bad behaviour, arent we teaching by example that when we are treated poorly, we ignore it?
So when a child feels they have been treated unfairly, for example, they have had their xbox removed for trashing their room, or when children are rude or dont adhere to boundaries, we ignore this, aren't we teaching our children that the way to respond to this is to seek the understanding of people and ignore what they deem is unfair?

Ignoring bad behaviour and focusing on rewarding good behaviour can surely only be effective if the child in question seeks the approval of the adult, wants to please them and is invested in earning the reward?
What happens when the child has little empathy? Doesnt seek the approval of adults? Doesnt feel the reward warrants the expectations placed upon them?
Do we increase the rewards? Attempt to make the child understand through discussion that their behaviour is not acceptable?
What happens when the child doesnt care what you think?

I work in a school and the ethos is always to try to understand why the child is behaving the way they are, and put measures in place to placate the child to prevent the behaviour reoccurring.
How effective is this in the long term though?
Does reward based parenting work when we simply ignore the bad behaviour?
I have seen a marked increase in the last 20 years of children who have scant regard for authority and behave badly, being verbally abusive to adults, physically abusive to adults and the response from adults is to talk to the child and understand from their point of view why they are behaving this way, instead of deeming it unacceptable regardless of mitigating circumstances.

Have we really made meaningful progress when parents are struggling to control their children? I see it on the teenager board on here too.
Awful behaviour where the child has literally no respect for the adults in authority, yet these same children have grown up in a society where using the word naughty to describe their behaviour is unacceptable, but ignoring a child is?
My best friend works in a safeguarding role and is very clear that parents describing their child as 'manipulative' is completely unacceptable, that her colleagues simply dont accept that a child is capable of being manipulative.
It is all so unclear to me, but from what I see and hear, childrens behaviour and the behaviour in society at large is not improving, in fact it is declining.
I understand that in years gone by, many children were abused in the name of discipline and I wouldnt want to go back there, but surely there is a compromise halfway, where we uphold our standards and at the same time, our children can be rewarded for good behaviour. Surely theres a compromise where children understand what is expected of them yet also feel they can discuss what is bothering them?

I suppose what I'm saying is that when the consequences to a childs poor behaviour are not effective in stopping the bad behaviour, does simply ignoring it and rewarding the good behaviour really work long term?

How can we expect children to grow into responsible adults who adhere to rules and laws, even when they dont like those rules and laws, if their only experience of ignoring rules throughout their childhood was to be ignored?
How can we expect children to understand long standing consequences for their actions when schools teach children that every day is a new day and a fresh start? That doesnt work so well in the adult world.
AIBU to believe that discipline is most effective as a two pronged concept, where we punish bad behaviour in a way that is meaningful to a child, as well as rewarding good behaviour, rather than just ignoring the bad and solely focusing on rewarding the good?

As an aside and not to compare children with animals, but I have also noticed in the last 10 years that we have engaged very similar techniques for training dogs.
Reward based training with no consequence for when they behave in a way we dont want.
We simply wait for our dogs to do what we want them to do before rewarding them.
Is this how dogs in the wild operate? Is this how a pack of dogs behave in the wild? Or do they attempt to understand each other? Make allowances for the badly behaved member of the pack?
Dogs are essentially our closest animals to wolves, something like less than 2% DNA difference, and have survived for many centuries in the wild, in packs.
I'm asking about dogs because I dont have a dog so I dont know, but does simply focusing on rewarding good behaviour work effectively for any species, including humans?

YANBU OP,

I have worked with kids for the last 10 years (and was also formerly a teacher) and honestly the change in behavior and parent response is appalling. I am all for encouraging positive behaviors and also for being empathetic to children’s feelings and emotions BUT there needs to be consequences to awful behaviors. Now seeing kids hit their parents is not only a common sight but something accepted as “normal child behavior.” , teachers are now pushed to accept the unacceptable including abusive behaviors from students and it’s frankly unacceptable.

It’s one thing to be empathetic to a child’s emotions and feelings and it’s a whole different to let them run wild and be completely rude and harmful both to others and themselves.

Gentle YABU.

There’s no one unified approach to parenting these days, if there ever was, and “parents these days aren’t tough enough on their kids” has been a complaint made by every generation since we invented the wheel.

I also can’t really think of a mainstream parenting style that actively encourages ignoring bad behaviour. I can think of some that don’t engage with bad behaviour, but that’s not the same thing.

Yes and no

I like to think of it as if they are adults. When someone commits a crime they don't get lashes they pay a fine or go to prison: consequences or naughty step. People are stopped by the police or brought to court so they understand the problem of what they did: "you do as I say, I'm big you're small" kind of parenting doesn't teach children anything besides hiding from their parents. (Yes, people hide from the police, fair enough)

But the thing is, parenting nowadays is not supposed to be about letting kids do wtv they wish (and some parents do do that!!). It's about giving kids time to understand their boundaries, and also parents understanding that sometimes kids are misbehaving not because they are being naughty but because they are struggling with communicating their needs

My kids definitely hear "no", btw

Depends what you mean by bad behaviour. I saw on a parenting programme one woman with small children and she would pick them up on every little thing. How they held their fork, ate, all sorts of things. So her day was constantly telling them off from dawn 'til dusk. Exhausting for her and not nice for them. She was shown how to ignore minor things and praise them when they were doing things right.

That's basically how I've always parented. Now they are teenagers I don't pick them up necessarily for being a bit grumpy or rude unless it crosses a line. And I praise them for positive behaviours. They have always been praised for being kind and a delight to teach at school.

I was parented to an extent being told off for minor things and criticised quite a lot and it just slowly chips away at your confidence. I want my DDs to know they are fine and enough, just as they are.

Broadly speaking I do agree with you OP. I think the general attitudes towards parenting have become very gentle, with shock and horror expressed about discipline that really isn't the traumatic thing people make it out to be. Like you say, some people have always taken discipline too far, but I do think the general consensus these days is way too far the other way.

@Mumoblue

Gentle YABU.

There’s no one unified approach to parenting these days, if there ever was, and “parents these days aren’t tough enough on their kids” has been a complaint made by every generation since we invented the wheel.

I also can’t really think of a mainstream parenting style that actively encourages ignoring bad behaviour. I can think of some that don’t engage with bad behaviour, but that’s not the same thing.

Yes, this.

Actual 'permissive' parenting isn't very common. I can't think of anyone I know that follows it as a philosophy, outside of the odd social media clickbait article. Authoritative parenting is more common, which is the kind of Janet Lansbury school of respectful parenting that also has boundaries and natural consequences.

@Linning

YANBU OP,

I have worked with kids for the last 10 years (and was also formerly a teacher) and honestly the change in behavior and parent response is appalling. I am all for encouraging positive behaviors and also for being empathetic to children’s feelings and emotions BUT there needs to be consequences to awful behaviors. Now seeing kids hit their parents is not only a common sight but something accepted as “normal child behavior.” , teachers are now pushed to accept the unacceptable including abusive behaviors from students and it’s frankly unacceptable.

It’s one thing to be empathetic to a child’s emotions and feelings and it’s a whole different to let them run wild and be completely rude and harmful both to others and themselves.

Absolutely my experience too. In my day to day life, I have to do many things I dont particularly want to do, and this is expected of me. I have to get up and go to work when I dont want to, I have to clean the house when I'd rather not, I have to go to bed when I'd rather stay up and watch a film. I accept that there are consequences for doing only what I like doing. If I eat nothing but fast food, I will get fat, so i dont. Yet the chorus I hear from children, and now young adults when they are asked to do something they dont like is 'I dont like that.' As if this is of super importance? Eat your vegetables. 'I dont like them.' Be polite to your teacher. 'I dont like him.' And the response? 'Why dont you like him?

My parents expected me to do some things I didnt like because they were good for me.

I dont like going to bed early, but it is good for me.
I dont like being pleasant to everyone all of the time but it is a kind thing to do so I do it.
Doing things we dont like, avoiding the things we dont like seems to have become commonplace, simply because we dont like them and we dont want to.

@Mumoblue

Gentle YABU.

There’s no one unified approach to parenting these days, if there ever was, and “parents these days aren’t tough enough on their kids” has been a complaint made by every generation since we invented the wheel.

I also can’t really think of a mainstream parenting style that actively encourages ignoring bad behaviour. I can think of some that don’t engage with bad behaviour, but that’s not the same thing.

Child professionals actively encourage ignoring bad behaviour and have done so for a number of years now. From health visitors to teachers to childminders and nurseries. That's my experience and I have worked alongside many many professionals who are in the field of childcare and education.

@ElftonWednesday

Depends what you mean by bad behaviour. I saw on a parenting programme one woman with small children and she would pick them up on every little thing. How they held their fork, ate, all sorts of things. So her day was constantly telling them off from dawn 'til dusk. Exhausting for her and not nice for them. She was shown how to ignore minor things and praise them when they were doing things right.

That's basically how I've always parented. Now they are teenagers I don't pick them up necessarily for being a bit grumpy or rude unless it crosses a line. And I praise them for positive behaviours. They have always been praised for being kind and a delight to teach at school.

I was parented to an extent being told off for minor things and criticised quite a lot and it just slowly chips away at your confidence. I want my DDs to know they are fine and enough, just as they are.

I can completely see how being pulled up on everything will erode a childs confidence so I agree with you. Your method sounds like a compromise between reward and punishment which I wholeheartedly agree with.

@Jupitersmoonandstars

It’s fine that we have different experiences 🤷‍♀️
I’ve been working in childcare on and off since I was 16, and I can’t really relate to your original post, but I’m not claiming to be the authority on it.
Different places have different approaches.

@MorningStarling

The cause (not necessarily problem) is parents are unable to physically punish a misbehaving child. (I'm not arguing here that that is good or bad - it's just a fact.)

If parents cannot physically hurt a child for behaving badly, there is no punishment the child is really afraid of. Most children in the 1950s knew that they'd get a belting if they misbehaved, children of the 1980s like me knew we'd get a smack. This was unpleasant and embarrassing and was to be avoided.

"Punishments" today are not really punishments at all, they are more of a loss of privileges. Taking a PlayStation away, not letting them play with their friends, making them sit on the so-called naughty step. They're temporary inconveniences, they're annoyances, but they're not painful and not permanent.

I am not arguing we should go back to smacking or caning or birching. But it's a simple fact that if there is no proper deterrent and no severe consequences for bad behaviour, there will be less inclination for the child to behave.

Rewarding good behaviour is all well and good but what happens if the parent is unable to provide the rewards the child actually wants? Small rewards might not seem enough to the child and big rewards can't be sustained by most parents.

You have put this much more succinctly than I could have. This is exactly what I was trying to get across.

The whole point of punishment is to teach the child not to repeat those undesirable behaviours.

The problem is you can't always ignore bad behaviour if it's something dangerous. You have to tell them no or give them a consequence or they could get badly hurt next time.

I'm not always convinced by gentle parenting. It led me to believe I'd just need to have a few polite conversations to explain why you can't run into the road for example and I'd just be listened to. Kids aren't like adults, they don't have the same impulse control and appreciation of long term consequences as a well adjusted adult.

Now as an adult, parenting has changed.

No, your experience as a child was not universal. As an adult you're aware of a variety of experiences and approaches you were oblivious to as a child. As an adult, you've discovered that the world is not a carbon copy of your family.

You're not comparing like with like, aside from anything else.

😬 Oh never mind, we’ve arrived at “it’s because we can’t smack them any more” real quick. I’m out.

I don't know, I don't think it is much to do with smacking no longer being allowed. I wasn't hit much as a child but the other discipline around it was much stronger, and the excuses made for bad behaviour fewer. I didn't feel my parents were overly critical or nitpicking, either.

I feel a lot of the problem comes from the kind of parents who felt that way as a kid now being very vocal about that not being the right way to do things.

There needs to be a balance: clear boundaries and consequences for major things; encouragement of good behaviour the rest of the time.

Especially with teenagers, you need to ignore the little things and concentrate on the major ones.

Major boundaries: anything associated with physical safety; good manners and kindness to others; no hitting - EVER; shared family rules - e.g. putting toys away as a routine.

The whole point of punishment is to teach the child not to repeat those undesirable behaviours.

Hmm. There's a growing move - based on the steadily increasing body of evidence - away from any kind of punishment / negative enforcement in animal training because it is now recognised as damaging and less effective than positive reinforcement.

Frankly, if we can recognise based on scientific evidence and research that punishing animals (who have the capacity to learn) is ineffective at teaching them and should be avoided, I am not sure why it is so difficult for people to accept the same for children.

Unless those people are motivated by an emotional desire to release their own frustration at "bad" behaviour through punishing a child, rather than an intention to teach that child.

I don’t really know! I guess parenting is one of those things where you can’t see the end result of your methods, so you just have to do what feels right for you and your kids at the time and hope for the best

I will add my two pence worth about the “reward based parenting” and your mention of that style in schools, because I experienced the backlash of this first hand with DC1’s school.
DC1 is generally a quite well-behaved child. She follows the rules majority of the time and cracks on with her school work without much bother. But there are a few children in her class who do display very challenging behaviour. One boy for example, is rewarded with an activity box that he enjoys when he’s followed the rules, done his work and managed to not hurt another child that day. My DC1 and a few other kids quickly noticed that this boy and a few other challenging children were being rewarded for simply behaving the way that majority of the children behave every single day, and felt put out out by it. So my DC and a few others then began to display behaviours that were very out of character in order to gain the same kind of attention that the more challenging children were getting from the adults in the class and then didn’t understand why they weren’t rewarded in the same way as the select few when they went back to following the rules again.

I think teenagers today are much nicer than in the eighties. They are the product of a more empathetic school system. Natural consequences " well no, they don't want to play with you anymore because they are hurt by what you said" rather than " go say sorry!" is a welcome improvement to me.
I do think that it does take longer for children to get it with this approach even though it makes for more empathetic adults in the long run. Taking a restorative approach also shouldn't be an excuse to ignore bad behaviour, it just means that you encourage the child to think through the problem and the solution themselves rather than blindly doing as they're told without understanding why. It is actually harder to do and takes longer to get the desired outcome. Shouting and taking the hard-line is much easier and less time consuming for the adult....which is why do many resort to it....including me sometimes

“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”

Socrates, somewhere around 400BC

"If we can't terrorise a child into submission, how will that child ever learn" is truly perverse and also plain ignorant. Nobody who believes that should be allowed near children.

I nannied for a child where the parents wouldn’t say ‘no’ and I was told I wasn’t to say it to her. She was allowed to ‘express herself’ in any way she felt and called all the shots.
She never tidied up her toys, chose sugary cereal to eat over healthy food and barely spent any time outdoors. She would decide if we were going swimming, for example. (Usually no.)
She would hit her parents and they just waited for her to stop.
After one particular bad day when she screamed at me as she wanted to watch tv for 6 hours straight I told the mum I wouldn’t be returning as I didn’t feel it was fair to allow her to make these choices and I didn’t feel comfortable being paid to sit there while she watched episode after episode of cartoons. She was 3.

I think a lot of it is that there's pressure not to point out or be critical of bad behaviour. Look at any thread on here where a person complains about someone else's kids being noisy or intrusive. There's usually a hoard of comments from commenters saying "kids are entitled to be kids", "kids shouldn't be locked up inside", "it's wrong for children to be seen and not heard", "you sound joyless" and "if anyone told my children off I'd tell them to eff off".

It used to be that others could correct children misbehaving in public, and that would often have a greater impact than the exhausted parents doing so for the fiftieth time, as well as demonstrating to kids that they're part of a wider society and that they need to have consideration for others. But that's been lost, and now adults are told off for even mentioning that kids are behaving badly. It's backwards.

YANBU OP but I hope you have a thick skin as this is MN!