AIBU regarding parenting techniques today?

[Jupitersmoonandstars]

So, I have NC because I know this will be controversial and I dont want it linked to my other posts.
When I was a child, whenever I behaved badly, there was a very clear consequence. My parents were not particularly strict, however, they certainly didnt ignore bad behaviour or indeed even try to understand where I was coming from.
Life was simple enough.
We had robust boundaries and expectations, and if we didnt adhere to 'the rules' we would be punished, either by removal of privileges or time out and yes, there were occasions when we were smacked.
Bad behaviour was not acceptable and would never go by unnoticed.

Now as an adult, parenting has changed. Parents are told to ignore the bad behaviour and reward the good behaviours. Parents are encouraged to understand why their children are behaving badly and to put preventative measures in place to make sure it doesnt happen in the first place, but I dont understand how this type of parenting teaches self control.
Children do learn by example, I agree, but if there are no tangible consequences for bad behaviour, and we simply focus on rewarding desirable behaviours whilst ignoring bad behaviour, arent we teaching by example that when we are treated poorly, we ignore it?
So when a child feels they have been treated unfairly, for example, they have had their xbox removed for trashing their room, or when children are rude or dont adhere to boundaries, we ignore this, aren't we teaching our children that the way to respond to this is to seek the understanding of people and ignore what they deem is unfair?

Ignoring bad behaviour and focusing on rewarding good behaviour can surely only be effective if the child in question seeks the approval of the adult, wants to please them and is invested in earning the reward?
What happens when the child has little empathy? Doesnt seek the approval of adults? Doesnt feel the reward warrants the expectations placed upon them?
Do we increase the rewards? Attempt to make the child understand through discussion that their behaviour is not acceptable?
What happens when the child doesnt care what you think?

I work in a school and the ethos is always to try to understand why the child is behaving the way they are, and put measures in place to placate the child to prevent the behaviour reoccurring.
How effective is this in the long term though?
Does reward based parenting work when we simply ignore the bad behaviour?
I have seen a marked increase in the last 20 years of children who have scant regard for authority and behave badly, being verbally abusive to adults, physically abusive to adults and the response from adults is to talk to the child and understand from their point of view why they are behaving this way, instead of deeming it unacceptable regardless of mitigating circumstances.

Have we really made meaningful progress when parents are struggling to control their children? I see it on the teenager board on here too.
Awful behaviour where the child has literally no respect for the adults in authority, yet these same children have grown up in a society where using the word naughty to describe their behaviour is unacceptable, but ignoring a child is?
My best friend works in a safeguarding role and is very clear that parents describing their child as 'manipulative' is completely unacceptable, that her colleagues simply dont accept that a child is capable of being manipulative.
It is all so unclear to me, but from what I see and hear, childrens behaviour and the behaviour in society at large is not improving, in fact it is declining.
I understand that in years gone by, many children were abused in the name of discipline and I wouldnt want to go back there, but surely there is a compromise halfway, where we uphold our standards and at the same time, our children can be rewarded for good behaviour. Surely theres a compromise where children understand what is expected of them yet also feel they can discuss what is bothering them?

I suppose what I'm saying is that when the consequences to a childs poor behaviour are not effective in stopping the bad behaviour, does simply ignoring it and rewarding the good behaviour really work long term?

How can we expect children to grow into responsible adults who adhere to rules and laws, even when they dont like those rules and laws, if their only experience of ignoring rules throughout their childhood was to be ignored?
How can we expect children to understand long standing consequences for their actions when schools teach children that every day is a new day and a fresh start? That doesnt work so well in the adult world.
AIBU to believe that discipline is most effective as a two pronged concept, where we punish bad behaviour in a way that is meaningful to a child, as well as rewarding good behaviour, rather than just ignoring the bad and solely focusing on rewarding the good?

I think there is a middle ground to be had, consequences where the child is punished without it being physical.
I think we have more understanding towards children and that can only be a good thing, I do however think some children are raised with unreal expectations of the world.
Gentle hands are great as long as there is an actual consequence for the rough hands, and that for me is what is lacking. Children hitting another and then being told gentle hands whilst being allowed to continue to play, shows no consequences and is failed parenting. There is too much of this kind of parent.

Excellent post @MessedOfTimes

If parents cannot physically hurt a child for behaving badly, there is no punishment the child is really afraid of.
Do you see it as a positive for your child to be 'really afraid' and live in fear of physical pain? I would much rather mine lived in fear of the true consequence of their action rather than someone with more strength attacking them, eg. when younger, if they don't share and take turns, others will not want to play with them which does not feel nice.

I am a very firm believer of leading by example; children closely view and model our behaviours. If we demonstrate kindness, empathy and tolerance towards all, they will too.

Fortunately I have managed to raise well behaved children who are able to follow rules, treat others with respect and have never been in trouble outside the home without resorting to violence towards them

People always talk about these parents who don't use the word 'no', won't say 'naughty', etc. - I have never, ever encountered one. And I live somewhere very liberal and crunchy. I see lots of stereotypical middle-class parenting - lots of performance parenting etc - but I just never encounter these supposedly ubiquitous parents who just say no.

Though parenting here is very different to where I used to live, which was a more... challenging area. Smacking had definitely not died out there. Weirdly, rather than being a utopia of perfectly behaved children due to this 'robust' parenting, there was a huge problem with aggression, petty crime, drug dealing, vandalism and arson among local teenagers. Maybe smacking isn't all that, after all?

I work in a school and the ethos is always to try to understand why the child is behaving the way they are, and put measures in place to placate the child to prevent the behaviour reoccurring.
How effective is this in the long term though?
Does reward based parenting work when we simply ignore the bad behaviour?

You are looking at it the wrong way, through a lack of understanding of the point of the exercise. It's not placating the child. It's viewing the behaviour as a means the child is using to express they have an unmet need. It's likely that the child is unable to identify the unmet need and is almost certainly unable to appropriately express the unmet need. Same as baby doesn't say "I'm hungry" instead it cries, the child is using the forms of communication it does have available to express a need it is aware of but able to identify. You aren't supposed to placate the child but instead seek out the unmet need, meet the need, describe and name the need to the child (to help them identify it in the future) and talk to them about better ways to express that need moving forward. Meeting the need is not a reward, it's an acceptance that unless our needs are met, we cannot grow.

Primary teacher with psych degree here, was never told to ignore bad behaviour. Grew up myself without punishments or rewards or physical chastisement. One of four siblings, all if whom got in well in school, friendships and later life. My parents were v normal, fairly conservative. They were in charge for sure, boundaries were firm, punishments didn't happen. We all have different experiences. Now as a teacher, I lean heavily on understanding of a child for sure, acknowledgment of difficulties, warm relationships and those boundaries again. The old way of reward and punishment had its casualties and there's plenty of reasons to move away from that approach.

PS I now work in a v disadvantaged school with a variety of problems. Relationship wins every time over any sort of rewards and punishment.

For reasons I won't bore you all with, I was exposed to both styles of caregiving, the gentler and a punishment based approach that the OP seems to be advocating. I don't mean smacking by the way, though that did happen a handful of times.
I know what I responded best to. The gentler approach - I genuinely didn't want to upset the adult who was looking after me, so behaved accordingly. The punishment approach bred long term fear and resentment. I'm not doing that with my own child - ever.

Don't sweat the small stuff. It makes life much easier and more pleasant.

Different children find different things difficult. I'm always a bit when people complain that their children aren't recognised for behaviour which 'naughty' children are rewarded for. For some children, sitting still and listening at school comes easily. For others, it is an ordeal. And it's important to remember that there was much less recognition of SEN in the past, which meant that many children were being measured against a standard which it was impossible for them to meet. Instead, they were caught in a cycle of continual 'misbehaviour' and ineffective punishment.

My child finds some things easy, including playing, sharing and interacting nicely with other children. I expect these behaviours from them and impose sanctions if my expectations aren't met. However, my DC finds other things very difficult, like sitting still, listening quietly and not interrupting. So I give lots of encouragement and praise when they do these things and that works much better than shouting and punishment.

@Goldbar

Don't sweat the small stuff. It makes life much easier and more pleasant.

Different children find different things difficult. I'm always a bit when people complain that their children aren't recognised for behaviour which 'naughty' children are rewarded for. For some children, sitting still and listening at school comes easily. For others, it is an ordeal. And it's important to remember that there was much less recognition of SEN in the past, which meant that many children were being measured against a standard which it was impossible for them to meet. Instead, they were caught in a cycle of continual 'misbehaviour' and ineffective punishment.

My child finds some things easy, including playing, sharing and interacting nicely with other children. I expect these behaviours from them and impose sanctions if my expectations aren't met. However, my DC finds other things very difficult, like sitting still, listening quietly and not interrupting. So I give lots of encouragement and praise when they do these things and that works much better than shouting and punishment.

As an adult, this is crystal clear and something most of us should understand with ease. But for a young child, it is very hard when you see someone else constantly being disruptive and then being rewarded when they finally stop when you did the right thing all along.

As an example - I am very fortunate that DD has no struggles at school - she is able to sit, focus, play, share well and is very bright. However, this meant she watched almost her entire class be rewarded with a certificate each week for something she did from the outset whilst she did not receive any recognition. Whilst I explained to her every week that we all have our own challenges and that child worked so hard to overcome theirs, the feeling of resentment was there and building. She received a phenomenal report at the end of term from her teacher (and lots of praise from us) but this does not come with the recognition that a certificate in assembly does so for her as the child, it is not fair.

@morechocolateneededtoday Agree - this was my experience as a child, too. Children have a very rigid concept of fairness, which makes experiences like this very difficult for them. As adults, we can rationalise it and explain it to them, and indeed when explained to them children can understand it, but it doesn't necessarily stop the feeling of resentment. Even adults get resentful and find it hard to quash it.

Why did MorningStarling get deleted?

@morechocolateneededtoday That situation does sound frustrating for your DD. But why were almost the entire class not listening etc in the first place? That sounds like it might not be a great teacher… Just as a counter example, there were two kids in DD’s P1 class that struggled with basic classroom expectations. When she complained to me that they’d got house points for something she does all the time we talked about empathising with them, how hard it must be to have to be in a classroom every day that you struggle with (versus very easy for her), how they might feel sad that they don’t get house points for work like she does and everyone should have the opportunity to be rewarded for what they’ve tried hard at, even if it’s not the same thing… she completely understood and then would quite proudly report on how well the other kids were doing. Now, that was probably easy for her because it was a small proportion of her class. But I disagree that resentment is a necessary biproduct of that situation.

[quote MabelsApron]@morechocolateneededtoday Agree - this was my experience as a child, too. Children have a very rigid concept of fairness, which makes experiences like this very difficult for them. As adults, we can rationalise it and explain it to them, and indeed when explained to them children can understand it, but it doesn't necessarily stop the feeling of resentment. Even adults get resentful and find it hard to quash it.[/quote]
Arguably that's a fault in how the teachers are implementing the system. Consistently good behaviour should be recognised alongside children with behavioural issues who are making a special effort to comply and meet expectations.

But really, what's the alternative? There are essentially two options. Either some parents have to explain to their children that 'fair' doesn't necessarily mean 'equal' in all circumstances and that the things which they find easy are much more difficult for other children. Or those other children are set up to fail and subjected to a punitive regime which is counterproductive, ineffective and likely to result in much more disruption for the class as a whole.

If parenting was so great years ago, then why are there so many adults who are criminals, alcoholics, abusive, have serious social problems?

My parents grew up in the generation of children should be seen and not heard, severe smacking, physical punishment at school. It did not stop there from being shit parents and badly behaved children. In those days physical and sexual abuse was swept under the carpet. My parents knew children who were sent to the 'bad boys' home where they were subjected to physical and sexual abuse. Lots went onto petty crime and drugs and generally a doomed life. Perhaps if someone had tried to help and understand they'd have had better outcomes.

I grew up in the 80s and 90s, again there were still lots of unruly children. Graffitiing, fighting, petty crime, vandalism, drinking, smoking and drugs were pastimes of many of the local teens.

We are not perfect now, but in my experience we do a lot better these days. We understand child development so much more.

I don't personally witness all of this overly soft parenting that people on here mention where parents are scared to say no anywhere near as regularly as seems to be on here.

Each generation will encounter different experiences and problems but it is rose coloured specs to simply say that parenting was better in the past.

Sorry - I have just reread your post and I see it’s not the same thing as they got the certificate in assembly. That does sound excessive, especially if for almost the whole class. I hope she has received certificates for other reasons!

I think the vast majority of children are well behaved most of the time.
The whole of childhood is a learning processs and some lessons need to be taught a few times in different ways appropriate to the age of the child to sink in.
I have heard to ignore bad behaviour, but more in the sense of not encouraging it by making it very rewarding for the child.

morechocolateneededtoday you have simply touched on the flipside of the problem of punishment, which is reward. Neither are beneficial or necessary in my book. I have taught for 20 years without either and I have had very well behaved classes in that time. Perfectly behaved children akways sitting still only speaking when called on? No, but that's not realistic. They are children, they have different developmental stages, abilities and needs. We will look back and see how utterly wrong a reliance on rewards/punishment was for this control that some find so necessary. Self control and cooperation is the end game not mindless, and often stressed, obedience.

If parenting was so great years ago, then why are there so many adults who are criminals, alcoholics, abusive, have serious social problems? So true enjoyingwinter

@HeyGirlHeyBoy that's exactly my view - I'm just as suspicious of rewards (be they stickers or starts or chocolate buttons). I'm trying not to go down that path with our daughter, and was in fact about to start reading up on some Montessori methods for inspiration, as I understand don't involve either. If you have any recommendations of other reading materials I'd be hugely appreciative (sorry, I hope I'm not derailing the thread).

Oh listen, I would talk about it forever!! Feel very strongly about it. Janet Lansbury is good and covers almost every situation on her page, Alfie Kohn a great read, less of a how-to but brilliant on the whys of not rewarding, punishing - Unconditional Parenting and The Punishment of Rewarss, both great. My own tip would be simple enough - always acknowledge their feeling without trying to change, be clear if behaviour not allowed and give another option. Love, relationship and kindness will get you further than any sticker or doggie biscuit! Highly recommend Janet L on toilet learning too. Best of luck.

@aweebitlost

Sorry - I have just reread your post and I see it’s not the same thing as they got the certificate in assembly. That does sound excessive, especially if for almost the whole class. I hope she has received certificates for other reasons!

I haven't explained the situation in as much detail as I could have; a couple of children receive a certificate each week in assembly for various reasons. All children have not been badly behaved, it is more the case that the situation they have found challenging - examples include sitting still, focusing, sharing, standing up in front of the class, separating from their parent etc - are all areas she does not struggle with. So they have been rewarded for improving in these areas but they were not problem areas for her.

This was all reflected in parents evening and end of term report but from her perspective, she has not received recognition as they receive it in assembly but she does when the teacher speaks to/writes to us

YANBU at all.

Problem is a say we were smacked as a child. I was explained why it was happening and then got the smack alot of my friends got this and maybe as ii got too old.for that a grounding. It was authoritive. Teaches in my school were more authoritive and adults alike were more authoritive. Our children are now growing in a society which is not authoritive. This type of parenting style just doesn't work in the society our kids are growing up in now. Parenting has to adapt as society changes. I think you can parent well and kids can behave with given clear boundaries, but it's harder work, you can't just smack your kids now it wouldn't work in today's society. Kids back when I was growing up knew they get a smack and it be done, now a parent would be judged as a bad parent for smacking now. I think it's a good thing but you have to put a lot of effort into following through different discipline. Plus when I was a kid I got a lot more freedom and independence to play out kids don't get that as much these days and I think it makes live harder for child and parent.

[quote aweebitlost]@morechocolateneededtoday That situation does sound frustrating for your DD. But why were almost the entire class not listening etc in the first place? That sounds like it might not be a great teacher… Just as a counter example, there were two kids in DD’s P1 class that struggled with basic classroom expectations. When she complained to me that they’d got house points for something she does all the time we talked about empathising with them, how hard it must be to have to be in a classroom every day that you struggle with (versus very easy for her), how they might feel sad that they don’t get house points for work like she does and everyone should have the opportunity to be rewarded for what they’ve tried hard at, even if it’s not the same thing… she completely understood and then would quite proudly report on how well the other kids were doing. Now, that was probably easy for her because it was a small proportion of her class. But I disagree that resentment is a necessary biproduct of that situation.[/quote]
We have done all these things and it is not that she does not understand; she does and she can see that others find some things harder than her. She is also very happy for her friends when they receive a certificate but surely you can also see how hard it is for a primary school child to see her peers be rewarded and her not, especially when her behaviour and attainments are faultless too.

@HeyGirlHeyBoy thank you so much! I'll order those ASAP. I've only read Philippa Perry's The Book You Wish Your Parents Had Read so far, and that's been very helpful.
So far we've got by without rewards or punishments, but she's only just 2, so I'm guessing it will only get more complex from here!