AIBU regarding parenting techniques today?

[Jupitersmoonandstars]

So, I have NC because I know this will be controversial and I dont want it linked to my other posts.
When I was a child, whenever I behaved badly, there was a very clear consequence. My parents were not particularly strict, however, they certainly didnt ignore bad behaviour or indeed even try to understand where I was coming from.
Life was simple enough.
We had robust boundaries and expectations, and if we didnt adhere to 'the rules' we would be punished, either by removal of privileges or time out and yes, there were occasions when we were smacked.
Bad behaviour was not acceptable and would never go by unnoticed.

Now as an adult, parenting has changed. Parents are told to ignore the bad behaviour and reward the good behaviours. Parents are encouraged to understand why their children are behaving badly and to put preventative measures in place to make sure it doesnt happen in the first place, but I dont understand how this type of parenting teaches self control.
Children do learn by example, I agree, but if there are no tangible consequences for bad behaviour, and we simply focus on rewarding desirable behaviours whilst ignoring bad behaviour, arent we teaching by example that when we are treated poorly, we ignore it?
So when a child feels they have been treated unfairly, for example, they have had their xbox removed for trashing their room, or when children are rude or dont adhere to boundaries, we ignore this, aren't we teaching our children that the way to respond to this is to seek the understanding of people and ignore what they deem is unfair?

Ignoring bad behaviour and focusing on rewarding good behaviour can surely only be effective if the child in question seeks the approval of the adult, wants to please them and is invested in earning the reward?
What happens when the child has little empathy? Doesnt seek the approval of adults? Doesnt feel the reward warrants the expectations placed upon them?
Do we increase the rewards? Attempt to make the child understand through discussion that their behaviour is not acceptable?
What happens when the child doesnt care what you think?

I work in a school and the ethos is always to try to understand why the child is behaving the way they are, and put measures in place to placate the child to prevent the behaviour reoccurring.
How effective is this in the long term though?
Does reward based parenting work when we simply ignore the bad behaviour?
I have seen a marked increase in the last 20 years of children who have scant regard for authority and behave badly, being verbally abusive to adults, physically abusive to adults and the response from adults is to talk to the child and understand from their point of view why they are behaving this way, instead of deeming it unacceptable regardless of mitigating circumstances.

Have we really made meaningful progress when parents are struggling to control their children? I see it on the teenager board on here too.
Awful behaviour where the child has literally no respect for the adults in authority, yet these same children have grown up in a society where using the word naughty to describe their behaviour is unacceptable, but ignoring a child is?
My best friend works in a safeguarding role and is very clear that parents describing their child as 'manipulative' is completely unacceptable, that her colleagues simply dont accept that a child is capable of being manipulative.
It is all so unclear to me, but from what I see and hear, childrens behaviour and the behaviour in society at large is not improving, in fact it is declining.
I understand that in years gone by, many children were abused in the name of discipline and I wouldnt want to go back there, but surely there is a compromise halfway, where we uphold our standards and at the same time, our children can be rewarded for good behaviour. Surely theres a compromise where children understand what is expected of them yet also feel they can discuss what is bothering them?

I suppose what I'm saying is that when the consequences to a childs poor behaviour are not effective in stopping the bad behaviour, does simply ignoring it and rewarding the good behaviour really work long term?

How can we expect children to grow into responsible adults who adhere to rules and laws, even when they dont like those rules and laws, if their only experience of ignoring rules throughout their childhood was to be ignored?
How can we expect children to understand long standing consequences for their actions when schools teach children that every day is a new day and a fresh start? That doesnt work so well in the adult world.
AIBU to believe that discipline is most effective as a two pronged concept, where we punish bad behaviour in a way that is meaningful to a child, as well as rewarding good behaviour, rather than just ignoring the bad and solely focusing on rewarding the good?

The time factor is important, if you've all the time in the world to wait for your child to make the right decisions and then praise them for doing so great. When you've got to get them to school so you can get to work on time and they are messing around instead of putting on their shoes not really practical.

I think the opposite. My teenagers are much more well behaved and happier than i was. I was smacked and shouted at and was quite troubled. I've been much more empathetic and encouraging to my kids and they are kind kids back.
You can be sure our prisons aren't filled with people who had kind, empathetic and attentive parents.

@draramallama

"If we can't terrorise a child into submission, how will that child ever learn" is truly perverse and also plain ignorant. Nobody who believes that should be allowed near children.

Ok, but what are you describing g as terrorising kids into submission? Hitting them? Because in my opinion there's a whole host of discipline other than that that people currently describe in this way that doesn't even come close to being abusive.

Agree with you OP.
I’m from the old school style of parenting and honestly, the difference in how she behaves and interacts in public, compared with her friends whose parents were more “progressive “ is remarkable. I’d be ashamed to call them my kids.

If we are always reactive when it comes to problems then things will never improve.

We can’t ignore the root cause of any issue because without looking at that you can’t change the behaviour moving forward.

Obviously sometimes behaviours will need punishment but the cause behind that behaviour shouldn’t be ignored.

Trying to understand the cause of bad behaviour, particularly in schools, is absolutely a good thing.

Thinking back, it's shocking to remember punishments given to children during my school days for minor things, e.g. not doing homework, when the pupil in question had a home situation that you would expect to get them taken in to care, by today's (mumsnet, at least) standards.

I don't think anyone ever suggests ignoring bad behaviour completely though? I've never heard it.

If anything, I think the general advice is for clear boundaries and sanctions, combined with positive attention for good behaviour.

@draramallama

The whole point of punishment is to teach the child not to repeat those undesirable behaviours.

Hmm. There's a growing move - based on the steadily increasing body of evidence - away from any kind of punishment / negative enforcement in animal training because it is now recognised as damaging and less effective than positive reinforcement.

Frankly, if we can recognise based on scientific evidence and research that punishing animals (who have the capacity to learn) is ineffective at teaching them and should be avoided, I am not sure why it is so difficult for people to accept the same for children.

Unless those people are motivated by an emotional desire to release their own frustration at "bad" behaviour through punishing a child, rather than an intention to teach that child.

Arent dogs in the wild or wolves in packs corrected by the alpha dog/wolf? Correction is a form of punishment I guess, so surely dogs do respond to correction/punishment and not simply waiting for them to exhibit the correct behaviour to gain a reward? I dont think dogs are as well trained or controlled as they could be. We see this all of the time on here, that lots of people are aware of poorly trained dogs in their neighbourhoods and parks. Most dog owners on here seem to use rewards to train their dogs, which is fine if it is balanced with corrections when the dog exhibits undesirable behaviours too.

@CaptainMerica

Trying to understand the cause of bad behaviour, particularly in schools, is absolutely a good thing.

Thinking back, it's shocking to remember punishments given to children during my school days for minor things, e.g. not doing homework, when the pupil in question had a home situation that you would expect to get them taken in to care, by today's (mumsnet, at least) standards.

I don't think anyone ever suggests ignoring bad behaviour completely though? I've never heard it.

If anything, I think the general advice is for clear boundaries and sanctions, combined with positive attention for good behaviour.

I can think of quite a lot of parents who do ignore bad behaviour due to a general "let kids be kids" ethos.

There is plenty of research around the use of punishment to adapt behaviour - we know that though punishment extinguishes bad behaviour this change does not remain if the threat of punishment is later removed. I think it is good that there is more focus on helping dc develop skills to self-regulate, I think this is better for everyone.

Conversely, we also understand better the negative impact of physical abuse during childhood. So I also think it is good that it is less common for adults to hit children as a form of punishment.

I think life has improved for huge numbers of dc compared to previous generations, and that people looking back of the "simplicity" of the past often do so with rose tinted glasses.

I'm a bit in between with this and try to use my parent's methods but a little more relaxed and definitely have more patience. Their is a lot of explanation done and behaviours are talked a lot and not tolerated. Consequences have been so far after 2 warnings, removal from soft play/park back to home and spoken to why we are leaving. There have been many times just as I went out the front room and dc kicking off, I have picked him up and went back home and cancelled plans. I have Never given more than two options for food wise or activities and some objects and furniture are out of bounds and not for playing.

I normally speak in a peaceful voice but when there's bad behaviour I will give a look and slightly raise my voice in a disapproving tone and tell dc this is unacceptable. I was loved and cuddled a lot and I do the same with my little one and it helps with meltdowns as well. I also never allow him to rule the house and he knows I have the last word in everything. Dh prefers to play the good cop which we clash all the time and I don't believe it's helpful. I do think among my friends im probably the most strictest parent but also every child is different, my dc is no where near a angel but I try my best to raise him to be a kind and empathetic person which will do no harm for the future.

IMO, I dont think parents are given enough support in how to discipline their children effectively.
We have, quite rightly, removed the rights of parents to correct their children in abusive ways, as they did years ago, but what we have replaced it with is not often effective, as you can see from the posts on this thread alone.

Is the support available to teach parents how to effectively discipline their children?
If it is available, why arent parents accessing it?

I am inclined to believe the support is actually not available, because you only have to look at how professionals are able to discipline unruly children.
If all they have at their disposal is what parents are already doing themselves, rewarding good behaviour and understanding what leads to poor behaviour in order to put something creative in place to prevent such behaviours recurring, then it doesnt hold out much hope that robust support is available.
If the professionals are struggling to control ever increasing amounts of pupils, then they clearly dont have effective means of disciplining children to stop the behaviours?

I do agree somewhat OP but I also question what constitutes “good behaviour” in a broader sense as it’s often subjective.

For instance, I imagine most parents would tell their kid off for things like hitting/talking back/breaking things. I do.

But I’m very laid back about other things and I really like natural consequences. Eg: Don’t want to wear your coat to school? Ok you’ll be cold not me. You want to put every single key ring from your collection on your bag? Fine, if one gets lost you can replace it from your piggy bank.

I also do absolutely LOVE threatening a consequence and following through. Best tool ever (surprisingly many don’t follow through and that’s the issue).

I know parents who micro manage their kids’ every move and they have “good” ie compliant kids. But being compliant isn’t a desirable quality in an adult, remember that.

I agree in that some parents you see take 'gentle' to mean never say no or 'tell off' 'Oh do be gentle Osmo' as they are hitting another child with all their might. My two would get very short shrift for that kind of behaviour. Any kind of violence or rudeness is quickly addressed, consequences are given and once they have apologised or stopped we move on quickly. I would never hit, humiliate, compare negatively to siblings of friends etc which were common methods by parents when I would young (90s) but would address it.

In the groups I move in parents tend to be generally positive and, especially for small children and toddlers, use distraction and diversion rather than punishments where possible. Having said that with good friends I have never seem them permit bad behaviour without them addressing it (obviously this happens in different ways).

I went on a school trip with my DDs reception class the other day and what struck me was how good they all were. Listened, followed the rules, engaged with the activities, interacted well together. They were delightful. Not saying they are all like that 24/7 but certainly they were not the spoilt, entitled, rude, uncontrollable rabble that you describe.

Some children and teens have always been rude and entitled. I think the teens of the 90s were far worse behaved generally than you see today.

I'd like to think there is a way of effectively disciplining children that goes further than empathising yet not so far as being an abusive parent. Is this possible?

I'd like to think there are ways of teaching children that sometimes, consequences can be long term, just as they are in the adult world, because isnt that part of parenting, to equip your children for the adult world?

And the adult world works very differently to the world a child inhabits so I'd like to see more being done to equip children to cope as adults. I dont think we are doing enough to prepare our children for adult life.
Yes, we are educating them academically, but are we teaching them how to behave in society as an adult? Are we teaching them that some consequences last a very long time? That you cant for example run up a credit card and then just say sorry to bring the balance back to zero?
That you cant tell your employer to fuck off and then apologise because you had a bad day and expect to still have a job?

Every generation think the following one is doing it wrong, is rude, is entitled, etc. It was ever thus and I'm sure our parents/grandparents thought we were being raised wrong too.

I have a friend from abroad and she comes from a very wealthy family with good professions (think like doctors, lawyers and uni professors) and was brought up by nannies etc. Anyway, she has two daughters and when the youngest was about 5 she used to slap, hit and bite her older sister. She used to go to a lot family, childrens counselling/paediatrician to seek advice on how to manage her children and one of them mentioned next time the 5 year old attempts to hit the older sibling, make sure the older sibling pulls the 5 year olds hair firmly just only once not completely pulling her hair from her scalp but in a controlled way just in a firm way.

My friend thought wtf at first and when she went home the same day, the same thing happened with the little one lashing out on the older sibling. My friend told her older daughter to do this as a one off in a controlled way to defend herself as soon as the little one lashes out again and the older sibling did it. The little one stopped immediately and wasn't expecting it. Her eyes started getting teary but didn't cry and from that day, she never lashed out on her sister or anyone else ever again.

Again even me and my friends parents and her other friends thought wtaf with this advice and have been critical with the method but it did work and as far as I'm updated, the little one has a great relationship with her older sister now that they are almost teens.

Behaviour in schools was bloody awful when I started (2003.)

I am really not convinced that the days of yore are to be admired for their parenting philosophies, to be honest.

Some children and teens have always been rude and entitled. I think the teens of the 90s were far worse behaved generally than you see today.
I agree that some children have always been rude and entitled, but I think today's teens are worse in terms of general behaviour. I am thinking of programmes such as 'Educating Essex / Yorkshire' etc where the poor behaviour would have been unthinkable when I was at school. (To be fair, that was in the sixties).

“Bad behaviour”...that phrase (which you’ve used repeatedly, OP) is your stumbling block. It seems an umbrella term (particularly among certain demographics) for any behaviour that is inconvenient/annoying/“something my parents would not have allowed”...it doesn’t indicate any direction, guidance or reframing...my parenting philosophy is, “if not, why not?”...what does a child actually learn that is functional, without also being taught the reason for it? Yes, it’s exhausting. No, we don’t get it right 100% of the time. And nor should anyone be expected to. Honestly, and without malice, it sounds like you’ve got a chip on your shoulder. Hey, pretty sure we’ve all got one of those about something. The reality is though, some people arrive at parenthood with a long list of what not to do. We determine that the buck stops with us. We educate ourselves. We pick through the pieces of our childhood and determine to do better and smarter than our parents did. Every generation should. And I’ve seen it time and again in my own. So, with all due respect, OP, you’re being all sorts of ridiculous unreasonable.

I think on the whole children are kinder and more tolerant now and there's less bullying. (I'm comparing my 80s girls' grammar with my dcs' comp.) It makes total sense that kinder parenting produces kinder kids.

I would agree with that @SnowDropMania

I’ve spent a large part of my adult life working with children, volunteering with children, then having children, running toddler groups, supporting parents… I really don’t recognise the picture you’re painting, of younger kids at least. Yes there is the odd example of a completely permissive parent. But it’s very much the exception rather than the rule. To be honest I see more of the shame-based parenting, which I think is appalling.

Nice post @MessedOfTimes

Hmmm. I agree to an extent but I think it’s helpful to remember what “discipline” means - teaching. As a parent, I want to teach my children to be functional and happy adults. In that context, there’s a balance to be struck between teaching them what’s unacceptable and I won’t tolerate and making them fearful and giving them negative attention. For example, to me, disturbing other people is unacceptable. If my toddler is noisy in a restaurant, she gets a clear warning. If she continues, I take her out of the restaurant. It’s not a punishment and I’m not shouting at her or spanking her - but I’m teaching her that she can’t stay in the restaurant and behave like that.
Much more concerning to me about modern parenting is the culture that if as a parent you’re not hugely suffering somehow for your child you don’t care about them/love them. From difficulties with children sleeping right through to ferrying teenagers to several sports games every weekend, I worry this shows a disturbing imbalance in a family and teaches a child that their needs are more important that others’.

Even if little x kicks bites punches parents and siblings he/ she must only be ignored. And might even get a reward sticker on the days such things don't happen.