AIBU regarding parenting techniques today?

[Jupitersmoonandstars]

So, I have NC because I know this will be controversial and I dont want it linked to my other posts.
When I was a child, whenever I behaved badly, there was a very clear consequence. My parents were not particularly strict, however, they certainly didnt ignore bad behaviour or indeed even try to understand where I was coming from.
Life was simple enough.
We had robust boundaries and expectations, and if we didnt adhere to 'the rules' we would be punished, either by removal of privileges or time out and yes, there were occasions when we were smacked.
Bad behaviour was not acceptable and would never go by unnoticed.

Now as an adult, parenting has changed. Parents are told to ignore the bad behaviour and reward the good behaviours. Parents are encouraged to understand why their children are behaving badly and to put preventative measures in place to make sure it doesnt happen in the first place, but I dont understand how this type of parenting teaches self control.
Children do learn by example, I agree, but if there are no tangible consequences for bad behaviour, and we simply focus on rewarding desirable behaviours whilst ignoring bad behaviour, arent we teaching by example that when we are treated poorly, we ignore it?
So when a child feels they have been treated unfairly, for example, they have had their xbox removed for trashing their room, or when children are rude or dont adhere to boundaries, we ignore this, aren't we teaching our children that the way to respond to this is to seek the understanding of people and ignore what they deem is unfair?

Ignoring bad behaviour and focusing on rewarding good behaviour can surely only be effective if the child in question seeks the approval of the adult, wants to please them and is invested in earning the reward?
What happens when the child has little empathy? Doesnt seek the approval of adults? Doesnt feel the reward warrants the expectations placed upon them?
Do we increase the rewards? Attempt to make the child understand through discussion that their behaviour is not acceptable?
What happens when the child doesnt care what you think?

I work in a school and the ethos is always to try to understand why the child is behaving the way they are, and put measures in place to placate the child to prevent the behaviour reoccurring.
How effective is this in the long term though?
Does reward based parenting work when we simply ignore the bad behaviour?
I have seen a marked increase in the last 20 years of children who have scant regard for authority and behave badly, being verbally abusive to adults, physically abusive to adults and the response from adults is to talk to the child and understand from their point of view why they are behaving this way, instead of deeming it unacceptable regardless of mitigating circumstances.

Have we really made meaningful progress when parents are struggling to control their children? I see it on the teenager board on here too.
Awful behaviour where the child has literally no respect for the adults in authority, yet these same children have grown up in a society where using the word naughty to describe their behaviour is unacceptable, but ignoring a child is?
My best friend works in a safeguarding role and is very clear that parents describing their child as 'manipulative' is completely unacceptable, that her colleagues simply dont accept that a child is capable of being manipulative.
It is all so unclear to me, but from what I see and hear, childrens behaviour and the behaviour in society at large is not improving, in fact it is declining.
I understand that in years gone by, many children were abused in the name of discipline and I wouldnt want to go back there, but surely there is a compromise halfway, where we uphold our standards and at the same time, our children can be rewarded for good behaviour. Surely theres a compromise where children understand what is expected of them yet also feel they can discuss what is bothering them?

I suppose what I'm saying is that when the consequences to a childs poor behaviour are not effective in stopping the bad behaviour, does simply ignoring it and rewarding the good behaviour really work long term?

How can we expect children to grow into responsible adults who adhere to rules and laws, even when they dont like those rules and laws, if their only experience of ignoring rules throughout their childhood was to be ignored?
How can we expect children to understand long standing consequences for their actions when schools teach children that every day is a new day and a fresh start? That doesnt work so well in the adult world.
AIBU to believe that discipline is most effective as a two pronged concept, where we punish bad behaviour in a way that is meaningful to a child, as well as rewarding good behaviour, rather than just ignoring the bad and solely focusing on rewarding the good?

Given how many badly behaved adults there are around, I don't think any generation has cracked it yet.

I sort of agree in some ways. Ex h is firm and expects good behaviour and gets it. The elder kids are also pleased that they are disciplined and see the benefits to it. However, going too far is just wrong. Being hit and criticised is not good and just breeds resentment. It’s also shown to perpetuate a cycle of abuse. Finding a halfway ground isn’t always easy. I’ve given up getting angry because it doesn’t work. I might punish in some way but without the anger. A simple “you did this when you were told not to so xxx consequence is going to happen” usually works. My kids are calmer for it.

Even if little x kicks bites punches parents and siblings he/ she must only be ignored. confused And might even get a reward sticker on the days such things don't happen.

I’ve never seen such an approach used or advocated, and I read a lot of parenting books.

You know what today’s parents have that previous generations didn’t? Access to information about how a child’s brain actually develops and the possibility of incorporating scientific knowledge into parenting. Neuroscientists and clinical
psychologists writing parenting books, rather than just self declared experts. Hooray!

Thank you, @aweebitlost
I think we’re on the same wavelength 🙌🏽

Ignoring a child being violent or anti social isn't modern parenting, it's poor parenting. The vast majority of parents would stop their child behaving antisocially. They just would be less likely to smack or hit them as a way of teaching not to be violent as was common in the past.
I remember a boy in my primary school getting the slipper for being violent on the playground in the 70s. It didn't work as I saw the boy in the papers years later for breaking a woman's rib and going on the run. I expect the boy was being treated violently at home and the school would have been better off trying to find out what was going on and helping him rather than just dishing out even more violence 70s style

There is a balance, I would never raise my hand to my child, it is abuse, not would I allow them to raise their hand to me.

We have very clear boundaries and consequences to those boundaries being broken. I hate that people think strict means no fun. Our house is full of love and laughter because our DS knows his boundaries, he knows no hitting, he knows no throwing, no shouting at people and using his manners.

How is a child suppose to know correct behaviour if the boundaries are not clear of what's expected of them.

Boundaries and consequences are essential IMO.

I am horrified at some behaviour on the school but we are told, oh ignore it and give them praise for the good things they do, yes i agree praise good children, build them up, raise their confidence and self worth but tell them also when they are in the wrong, they need to learn.

Teachers used to discipline using humiliation, fear and sarcasm. It was pretty unpleasant.

I don’t ignore bad behaviour, didn’t know that was a thing…unless it’s passed me by? I have a nearly 4 year old. The only thing I’d do different to my parents generation is I wouldn’t smack my children.

YANBU. I’m almost amazed by some parenting skills I witness. I went to a toddler group today and there’s one Mum who is a regular so this wasn’t a one off. Her toddler (he’s around 18-20 months at a guess) is a regular trouble causer if you like. He’s just so mean to other children all of the time- snatches toys, pushes toddlers often smaller than he is, he’s pulled my DS’s hair a couple of times as well really viciously and also jumped on him. She just sits there chatting to her friend largely ignoring him. Occasionally you’ll here her let out a ‘oh do stop that’ in a pathetic voice but she never moves to remove him from a situation, she just sits there. I can’t believe it really. Today he tried snatching a toy off another boy who just wasn’t having any of it so they fought over this toy and it ended up whacking my poor 18 month old in the head.

She isn’t alone with this sort of parenting either. There’s a school Mum who is just the same. She has three son’s, her eldest is in my DD’s year 6 class and he’s incredibly naughty (he once brought a potato peeler into school and threatened to kill people with it ffs). The younger ones are about 5 and 2 now and they’re going the same way. They just run around and don’t listen to her at all but the only consequences are her also doing a ‘let’s not do this’ in a meek voice while she’s chasing them around in circles. One of them once stopped and just sat down in the middle of the pathway blocking everyone else but she didn’t pick him up as you’d imagine, she sort of laughed and did a ‘oh you want to sit down now do you?’… meanwhile everyone else is waiting to get past so they can collect their children.

I don't know, I'm much stricter than my Mum was. I say 'no' to my kids and I set boundaries. I use 'natural consequences' a lot and I don't mollycoddle or helicopter them. But I do try to know them as people, I talk to them about their perspective, their hopes and dreams, their worries and fears, their friendships and their school work, their interests. I try and prevent behaviours before they happen, and learn the 'why's' because prevention is better than punishment, for sure. I very rarely use formal time outs, but do utilise different spaces eg. If two of my kids are squabbling they will be sent to play in different rooms. I think there is good and bad in most parenting methods so I pick and choose what works for my family and don't stick to anything rigidly. What works for one of my children won't work for the other, it's not about sticking arbitrarily to one method or another. One of my kids really responds well to making things fun and a game and is generally well behaved unless I am too 'strict' and then he rebels and stops cooperating, and the other responds really well when I am very clear and very firm. So I'm constantly switching methods. I don't like the 'do as I say not as I do' method of parenting but I also think it is so important for kids to know you are in charge and not them. How scary would it be to be in control of a situation you are not equipped to be? Kids find it scary to not know who is responsible for their safety and security and emotional well being. It's frightening. They need to know who the boss is, but that doesn't give the parents the right to bully and intimidate their kids. That's not the same thing

Seeing animals that had been 'trained' by punishment honestly traumatised me. The memory of a dear little dog of a friend's aunt cowering and shaking because the aunt said the words 'the whip 'fido' when it was just not going to sit in the corner like he'd been told, or some such minor misdemeanor another dog the now ex dh of a friend threatening their dog . Having a dog the same breed as the aunt now, it does respond to rewarding good behaviour, and is the happiest little soul going, the aunt's dog was always on edge, poor thing [it was not in this country which is how I saw more of the dog than you'd normally see of a mate's aunt's dog. And when I had a baby and was watching other parents and how they behaved, and being sickened by spanking small babies for doing normal baby things, that was something I was not ever going to do or all the stuff that went with it
There is a difference between being an authoritarian parent and one that is pretty permissive but sets boundaries and has consequences where necessary, and a difference again with this sort of parenting and what they call jellyfish parenting, letting your child eat cake for tea, not brush their teeth and not go to bed until the wee small hours and hit their sibling, whatever
Everyone looks back at the golden age of parenting, but if like me you are a member of any of the facebook groups 'memories of whateverville' the number of older people who reminisce about how they [mis]behaved in school, how they shoplifted, their parents didn;t know about it, if they did they'd get whacked so they kept it all
under wraps, etc etc etc, most kids today are no worse, and if they behaved like some of the oldies say they behaved, they would be excluded from school, and in trouble with social services, the police

No, I think your OP is mostly horseshit, I'm afraid. We all remember kids who were whacked and slapped and threatened and bellowed at in school and at home. Always the same kids. It didn't improve behaviour and it didn't improve outcomes for kids. There was just as much appalling behaviour and bullying and rudeness. Lots of children lived in fear and grew up resentful, inhibited and damaged. We all know adults who struggle to parent or even to form good relationships because their own childhood taught them to solve problems with violence and intimidation.

We know better now. We know how violence and fear affect brain chemistry. We know much more about how children learn, and what they learn from the way we treat them. Poor parenting of the kind you bemoan - lazy, overly permissive, hands-off parenting - was a problem in the 50s and the 80s (and ancient Rome, tbh) just as it is today. So was, and is, extreme child abuse. It's the majority in the middle which has shifted away from punitive authoritarianism and unquestioning obedience, and this is a good thing. Children who are handled with kindness and humanity learn not only how to treat others decently but WHY they should. Children learn best by being shown the right way, and scaffolded and supported as they develop healthy ways of interacting. Shouting, smacking and terrifying children never did any good in the past, and it won't do any good now.

I agree with you in a way, but this has been happening for years. Just look at the men women complain about on here every day. They were raised by parents a couple of generations ago from today's kids, and those parents still screwed up.

Parents need to teach their children right from wrong, how to be decent human beings, be polite etc. Many don't know how to do this.

I think permissive parenting is actually very rare and most people sit somewhere in the middle. We know a lot more about what works and what doesn't work now than we did 20 years ago - much of the change in parenting is actually evidence based so going back to the days of smacking isn't going to help.

The same applies to adults - if you look at countries where the justice system focuses more on rehabilitation than on punishment, you will see that those are also the countries with the lowest recidivism rates. Norway is a case in point.

Lastly I disagree that teenagers are so much worse now than they were 20 years ago. The majority of them are absolutely fine. They just aren't automatically deferential any more and I see that as a good thing. Mutual respect works, and I've never had a problem.

Well there are so many different ways to raise children. And so much differing advice out there. Of course people get it wrong. Your parents will have gotten it wrong on occasion too OP. Your childhood wasn’t the golden era of parenting- there were plenty of shit parents around then too.

In my day to day life, I have to do many things I dont particularly want to do, and this is expected of me.
I have to get up and go to work when I dont want to, I have to clean the house when I'd rather not, I have to go to bed when I'd rather stay up and watch a film.

You don’t have to do any of those things. You chose to do them all because you prefer the consequences of doing them to the consequences of not doing them. And no one punishes you if you don’t do them.

Re animal training via punishment. All of the abused chimps by Mary Chippendale had health issues caused by stress and lived shorter lives, as those who watch Monkey life will know. Yet the monkeys that they have from a young age and reward train don't have any issues.
If you watch documentaries on East End gangsters, it was the use of punishment under 26 that helped to make them violent.
I also don't recognise some of the points. The lads that I went to school with in the 70's were hit. They were also claimed. It just hardened them up. I wouldn't say that anyone of that time were better people tbh.

Tbh it just comes across as though you like children being punished and are sad it’s not happening enough for your liking.

I gentle parent. We have a small list of family expectations which are about respect and communicated in a positive way. So 'we use kind hands and feet or we respect personal boundaries' instead of 'no hitting.'

Breaking those rules would result in stern words but generally we deal in natural consequences. 'If you can't play nicely with this toy, I'll remove it's 'you've thrown your phone and broken it, now you don't have a phone' 'you've been violent with your sibling,now they don't want to play.'
We don't shout, because I don't like being shouted at.

I'm not trying to raise children who are good because they've been told to be, I'm trying to raise children to fully understand consequences to actions and that they need to own their choices.

There is not one approach to parenting nor is there one approach that works for all children in the same way regardless of what the professionals you refer to say. I make my own mind up through my own research how I will raise my kids.

I do not ignore bad behaviour at all. So rude words said in anger, aggression while frustrated, a simplification is allow the feelings but not the actions... yep you can be angry, but you cannot hit/ shout etc etc. However I do not believe in rewards either and none of my kids received rewards for good behaviour as good behaviour is a baseline that I just expect and they know this. However all the rewards came flooding on when they got to school!!

I cannot go into the details of why I do not like reward for kids but pretty much the same reason I do not like punishing kids. The misconception here is that you cannot discipline a child without punishing them. I disagree wholeheartedly with this. Kids needs strict boundaries and rules that are firm, like you say whether they like it or not. Fundamentally it's the job of a child to test those boundaries in a safe place like home, not at school or at a friends house.

The book I would actually love more schools and teachers to read is all about too many rewards for kids.

Punished by rewards. Alfie Kohn

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Punished-Rewards-Twenty-fifth-Alfie-Kohn/dp/132845052X/ref=ascdff_132845052X/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=310856639426&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5888104173502991677&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045936&hvtargid=pla-490869632776&psc=1&th=1&psc=1

Now as an adult, parenting has changed. Parents are told to ignore the bad behaviour and reward the good behaviours.

this isnt true as a parent of a SEN kid I have attended two courses on supporting parents of ASD kids and both told parents to reward good behaviour and encourage it and to call out bad behaviour and punish it.

But in honesty....

I find people get confused between the idea of gentle and permissive parenting.

My kids don't do what they want.

We have clear boundaries and consequences, as adults do in the real world. The gentle part is the response to the behaviour. We dont shout, or hit or do time outs. We acknowledge all emotions, positive and negative.

@Jupitersmoonandstars

As an aside and not to compare children with animals, but I have also noticed in the last 10 years that we have engaged very similar techniques for training dogs. Reward based training with no consequence for when they behave in a way we dont want. We simply wait for our dogs to do what we want them to do before rewarding them. Is this how dogs in the wild operate? Is this how a pack of dogs behave in the wild? Or do they attempt to understand each other? Make allowances for the badly behaved member of the pack? Dogs are essentially our closest animals to wolves, something like less than 2% DNA difference, and have survived for many centuries in the wild, in packs. I'm asking about dogs because I dont have a dog so I dont know, but does simply focusing on rewarding good behaviour work effectively for any species, including humans?

Modern, scientific approaches to dog training encompasses the quadrants of changing behaviour. Positive and negative reinforcement and positive and negative punishment.

We use positive reinforcement to get more of a desired behaviour, eg reward with something the being likes when the offer good behaviour is likely to increase and get more of that behaviour.

We also use negative punishment. This is where we remove something the being likes and enjoys as a consequence of a bad behaviour. Eg dog jumping up at visitors = remove doges access to visitors and train them to offer another behaviour instead (mutually exclusive behaviour) when we have visitors.

When we use positive punishment and negative reinforcement we use aversive (something the being doesn’t like) to decrease adverse behaviour. This can have a damaging effect on relationships between the handler (or parent) and the dog (or child). It can cause mistrust. Fear. And much more. Which of course can manifest into anxieties which in turn leads to other bad undesirable and misplaced behaviours.

When we use aversive methods to train dogs the dogs behaviour doesn’t change because it’s learned. It changes because it’s afraid of the consequence (think a yank to the throat when they bark, or a collar tightening round their wind pipe when they pull on the lead). They avoid this by changing their behaviour.

Dogs are not wolves. They are very different in many ways such as brain and skull size, smaller jaws, small bodies, they are able to reproduce twice a year not every two years like a wolf, they evolved to carry the AMY2B gene which allowed them to digest starch rich foods unlike the wolf. They don’t behave like wolves. So dominance theory in thag sense is not true.

When dogs or other animals use physical punishment to ‘correct’ behaviour then do it at a precise time and with such precision the other dog learns. We are a different species and cannot do the same effectively without damaging our relationship with the animal. We have to communicate with them to change behaviour positively.

I wish I'd tried harder to understand ds2's bad / difficult behaviour when he was little tbh. It was almost all anxiety driven, and if I'd understood that earlier then I think all our lives would have been easier. I was brought up on the system you admire and thought it was the right way to parent, now I think differently.

I agree @rambleonplease

I think my generation, the super nanny generation, expect a reward for anything half positive and crave the praise while simultaneously we were shown that our negative emotions should just be ignored instead of being acknowledged.
We often use the same tactic 'it's okay to be angry you lost, its not okay to hit your sister' is a common one here, usually followed up with a talk of how we can deal with the anger and move move from the situation.

Its our jobs to help children learn to control their emotions, not just ignore them.