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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU regarding parenting techniques today?

121 replies

Jupitersmoonandstars · 19/01/2022 11:01

So, I have NC because I know this will be controversial and I dont want it linked to my other posts.
When I was a child, whenever I behaved badly, there was a very clear consequence. My parents were not particularly strict, however, they certainly didnt ignore bad behaviour or indeed even try to understand where I was coming from.
Life was simple enough.
We had robust boundaries and expectations, and if we didnt adhere to 'the rules' we would be punished, either by removal of privileges or time out and yes, there were occasions when we were smacked.
Bad behaviour was not acceptable and would never go by unnoticed.

Now as an adult, parenting has changed. Parents are told to ignore the bad behaviour and reward the good behaviours. Parents are encouraged to understand why their children are behaving badly and to put preventative measures in place to make sure it doesnt happen in the first place, but I dont understand how this type of parenting teaches self control.
Children do learn by example, I agree, but if there are no tangible consequences for bad behaviour, and we simply focus on rewarding desirable behaviours whilst ignoring bad behaviour, arent we teaching by example that when we are treated poorly, we ignore it?
So when a child feels they have been treated unfairly, for example, they have had their xbox removed for trashing their room, or when children are rude or dont adhere to boundaries, we ignore this, aren't we teaching our children that the way to respond to this is to seek the understanding of people and ignore what they deem is unfair?

Ignoring bad behaviour and focusing on rewarding good behaviour can surely only be effective if the child in question seeks the approval of the adult, wants to please them and is invested in earning the reward?
What happens when the child has little empathy? Doesnt seek the approval of adults? Doesnt feel the reward warrants the expectations placed upon them?
Do we increase the rewards? Attempt to make the child understand through discussion that their behaviour is not acceptable?
What happens when the child doesnt care what you think?

I work in a school and the ethos is always to try to understand why the child is behaving the way they are, and put measures in place to placate the child to prevent the behaviour reoccurring.
How effective is this in the long term though?
Does reward based parenting work when we simply ignore the bad behaviour?
I have seen a marked increase in the last 20 years of children who have scant regard for authority and behave badly, being verbally abusive to adults, physically abusive to adults and the response from adults is to talk to the child and understand from their point of view why they are behaving this way, instead of deeming it unacceptable regardless of mitigating circumstances.

Have we really made meaningful progress when parents are struggling to control their children? I see it on the teenager board on here too.
Awful behaviour where the child has literally no respect for the adults in authority, yet these same children have grown up in a society where using the word naughty to describe their behaviour is unacceptable, but ignoring a child is?
My best friend works in a safeguarding role and is very clear that parents describing their child as 'manipulative' is completely unacceptable, that her colleagues simply dont accept that a child is capable of being manipulative.
It is all so unclear to me, but from what I see and hear, childrens behaviour and the behaviour in society at large is not improving, in fact it is declining.
I understand that in years gone by, many children were abused in the name of discipline and I wouldnt want to go back there, but surely there is a compromise halfway, where we uphold our standards and at the same time, our children can be rewarded for good behaviour. Surely theres a compromise where children understand what is expected of them yet also feel they can discuss what is bothering them?

I suppose what I'm saying is that when the consequences to a childs poor behaviour are not effective in stopping the bad behaviour, does simply ignoring it and rewarding the good behaviour really work long term?

How can we expect children to grow into responsible adults who adhere to rules and laws, even when they dont like those rules and laws, if their only experience of ignoring rules throughout their childhood was to be ignored?
How can we expect children to understand long standing consequences for their actions when schools teach children that every day is a new day and a fresh start? That doesnt work so well in the adult world.
AIBU to believe that discipline is most effective as a two pronged concept, where we punish bad behaviour in a way that is meaningful to a child, as well as rewarding good behaviour, rather than just ignoring the bad and solely focusing on rewarding the good?

OP posts:
HeyGirlHeyBoy · 19/01/2022 17:13

Which is why morechocolateneededtoday no rewards are preferable. Those children's efforts, like, all can be recognised with a kind word, a note home etc. I have a personal thing about rewarding separating, as it is such a normal and understandable developmental stage. A simple 'You came in all by yourself today!' is enough. Make it about what they can do rather than an external motivation, linked to pleasing someone else.

HeyGirlHeyBoy · 19/01/2022 17:13

You're very welcome EarlGrey I have pm'd you so as not to derail!

morechocolateneededtoday · 19/01/2022 17:17

@HeyGirlHeyBoy

Which is why morechocolateneededtoday no rewards are preferable. Those children's efforts, like, all can be recognised with a kind word, a note home etc. I have a personal thing about rewarding separating, as it is such a normal and understandable developmental stage. A simple 'You came in all by yourself today!' is enough. Make it about what they can do rather than an external motivation, linked to pleasing someone else.
I wish this were the case in primary school. It is exactly how we brought our DC up until school age, they also went to a Montessori which followed the same style of teaching but sadly, every school we viewed use a reward system for attainment/behaviour
ChocolateDeficitDisorder · 19/01/2022 17:18

I have seen a marked increase in the last 20 years of children who have scant regard for authority and behave badly, being verbally abusive to adults, physically abusive to adults

I've recently given up my HLTA job after ten years as I couldn't face another year of being abused by mainstream pupils. The management's restorative 'talks' had very little effect and resulted in the children becoming more manipulative.

HeyGirlHeyBoy · 19/01/2022 17:22

That's terrible chocolatedeficit (you guys are not helping a chocaholic in isolation here!! Grin), firm limits are an essential part of restorative approach also. Lost in School is a vg read.
morechocolateneededtoday I am the same.. My dc's school is similar. It's maddening, so unnecessary but you have given her a great starting point. There was none of this 20 years ago when I started out (Ireland). I think we're going backwards sometimes.

aweebitlost · 19/01/2022 17:53

Oh @morechocolateneededtoday I completely agree with you that it would be preferable to do away with it altogether. It sounds like we are probably on the same page then regarding the OP. But it also sounds like your DD’s school could have handled their chosen system better; challenges and attainments are different for different children, but if they’ve decided to do an assembly certificate system then every child should be recognised for their achievements - including your DD.

dingledanglewoowoo · 19/01/2022 19:02

@Jupitersmoonandstars I'm interested in what you'd like schools to do?
My eldest DC has just started secondary. His school isn't hugely strict, in that they don't get seclusion or detention for every little uniform infraction like some schools around here. But, they crack down hard the right things - physical incidents that could put people at harm, rudeness etc. Kids get given detentions, put in report or put in seclusion depending on the seriousness of the incident.
The school seems much stricter than mine was. But at the same time they also seem to be able to look at why a child may be behaving a certain way so they can support them to do better.
I prefer that to how things were in the 1980s.

Redhotspicywine · 19/01/2022 19:13

Yabvu

GrandDuchessRomanov · 19/01/2022 19:17

Completely agree OP.

Swonderful · 19/01/2022 19:18

I actually think it's totally wrong to ignore "bad behaviour" like toddler tantrums but for different reasons.

If you ignore your kids regularly when they're upset then you're setting them up for problems in the long run. Have a read about a avoidant attachment.

ldontWanna · 19/01/2022 20:20

So what's your alternative/suggestion OP?

I see plenty of ineffective parenting/behaviour management techniques. The science and psychology behind most of them is sound, but when not applied correctly or taken to an extreme it's a fuck up. Just like having to hurt your child in order to control them is a fuck up.

Most people I know though manage quite well to have a decent balance between understanding and acknowledging their child's behaviour and development and also having boundaries and disciplining them. Of course they makes mistakes , there's no perfect parent, but good parents do learn from their mistakes , adjust and adapt.

morechocolateneededtoday · 19/01/2022 22:15

Yes @aweebitlost we are definitely on the same page there. I just got sidetracked by the comment
Different children find different things difficult. I'm always a bit hmm when people complain that their children aren't recognised for behaviour which 'naughty' children are rewarded for.
as its demoralising for a child who does all the right things to get no acknowledgement or recognition no matter how much us parents understand that every child is facing a different challenge.

Rose tinted glasses is not the way forward when looking at parenting techniques. There were some good things about the past but also many bad

ldontWanna · 19/01/2022 22:44

@morechocolateneededtoday

Yes *@aweebitlost* we are definitely on the same page there. I just got sidetracked by the comment Different children find different things difficult. I'm always a bit hmm when people complain that their children aren't recognised for behaviour which 'naughty' children are rewarded for. as its demoralising for a child who does all the right things to get no acknowledgement or recognition no matter how much us parents understand that every child is facing a different challenge.

Rose tinted glasses is not the way forward when looking at parenting techniques. There were some good things about the past but also many bad

It's a poor school and even worse behaviour management when well behaved children get no recognition at all.

Even if it's not star of the week or certificate or whatever , praise ,being used as an example, mentioning their name to other staff in conjunction with something they did well, having them as the responsible "I need a job done" pupil etc can go a long way to ensure they feel they are seen and noticed and to build relationships.

morechocolateneededtoday · 20/01/2022 10:03

@IdontWanna she does get some of the things you mention, they give stickers and she mentioned something about giving out a handout to the class because she was good. In her eyes, this is not the same as recognition in front of the school.

As an adult, I can see why the school have focused on the challenges other children have had, they have come a long way. It doesn't help that the challenges she is experiencing (which are equally significant) do not affect her at school so they do not see her progress.

I have not mentioned anything to school for now, but will see where things go over this term and may mention it at parents evening.

LeevMarie · 20/01/2022 11:49

If you ignore your kids regularly when they're upset then you're setting them up for problems in the long run. Have a read about a avoidant attachment.

I'm not disagreeing with this, as I'm interested in the theory, but as parents, it's sometimes difficult to recognise which bad behaviours are true manifestations of upset, and which are simply disobedience and defiance.

For example, my 3 year old sometimes has a tantrum on a morning when it's time to leave for nursery. I don't acknowledge the reasons for his misbehaviour every morning that there's an incident or try and reason with him, I just calmly go about putting our shoes and coats on and remind him we don't shout at each other. Actually, this behaviour escalated last year and became a daily struggle until I began applying sanctions like the removal of favourite toys/games etc. He recognised that if he caused an upset on a morning, there would be consequences, so he became much more compliant.

I guess my issue with much of the gentle approach is that often requires time that I don't have. Ultimately, I need things to run smoothly and on time on a morning because I have responsibilities to fulfil. I don't expect him to understand that, but I do expect him to learn that sometimes, you just need to tow the line and can't demand an explanation for every single thing that you're expected to do.

PleasantBirthday · 20/01/2022 12:12

This is actually something I've been thinking about. I live in Ireland and there was a feature on a news programme about how a young man committed suicide after years of horrific bullying. Inexplicably, the bullies continued to write nasty things on his instagram after his death.

And I have been wondering, how does a whole gang of teenagers behave so horribly? What has gone wrong with them?

Personally, I do blame the parents. I think parents don't always understand that they have a responsibility to guide their kids, to be involved and not to throw their hands up, to not be defensive and back appalling behaviour up.

I know things were different when I was a kid, we didn't have mobiles, for example, but I can't imagine my mother (or father, but mother in particular) being that uninvolved in my life that I could be involved in a campaign of harassment of this kind. I don't know what she could have done to stop it, but she would have tried something. And I fear parents are thinking, well, they're x age, what can I do? rather than accepting that you have to be the grown up, you have to set the boundaries, you have to have the talk but you also have to hold a line. Some things are not OK and you can't let them slide, even if you feel afraid and powerless and ashamed.

HeyGirlHeyBoy · 20/01/2022 15:27

So true Pleasant, this has been on my mind at times too. I had a discussion with a neighbour about her child, and others, and their behaviour and she was very much, sure what can you do, that's what children do, it's different now etc but absolutely they need our supervision and later our guidance. LeeVMarie I see what you mean re time but you could just pick up and go, acknowledging as you go, no need for any explanation, it won't be heard anyway during a tantrum. I personally wouldn't punish for a tantrum. It's so developmentally normal. You're punishing difficult feelings. Learning to repress them or that parents don't want to hear them isn't a good thing. I know it's not easy.

Ozanj · 20/01/2022 15:37

My 2 yo son is extremely stubborn. No physical punishment like smacking would ever work on him because he would either laugh it off (he is a tough little boy and has shrugged off attacks from much older kids) or argue back to tell you to ‘stop smacking’ which is what he does when his dc get smacked in front of him. The only thing that works is tying him up into logical routine based arguments and by building such strong routines that what adults deem as good behaviour becomes an innate part of the routine until he eventually internalises it.

Ozanj · 20/01/2022 15:40

@PleasantBirthday

This is actually something I've been thinking about. I live in Ireland and there was a feature on a news programme about how a young man committed suicide after years of horrific bullying. Inexplicably, the bullies continued to write nasty things on his instagram after his death.

And I have been wondering, how does a whole gang of teenagers behave so horribly? What has gone wrong with them?

Personally, I do blame the parents. I think parents don't always understand that they have a responsibility to guide their kids, to be involved and not to throw their hands up, to not be defensive and back appalling behaviour up.

I know things were different when I was a kid, we didn't have mobiles, for example, but I can't imagine my mother (or father, but mother in particular) being that uninvolved in my life that I could be involved in a campaign of harassment of this kind. I don't know what she could have done to stop it, but she would have tried something. And I fear parents are thinking, well, they're x age, what can I do? rather than accepting that you have to be the grown up, you have to set the boundaries, you have to have the talk but you also have to hold a line. Some things are not OK and you can't let them slide, even if you feel afraid and powerless and ashamed.

Children have bullied each other for thousands of years. I remember in the 80s it used to manifest itself as violence and social ostricisation with it being a 1000x worse for boys because kids used to organise fight meet ups after school to attack the bullies. No phones or social media needed back then just word of mouth.
PleasantBirthday · 20/01/2022 16:00

I didn't actually, at any point, say that bullying was a new invention.

SnackSizeRaisin · 20/01/2022 16:32

I don't really think rewards or punishments should form the basis of encouraging good behaviour. Children should behave because they want to be part of a family or community. Mutual respect and leading by example should be the main tools. Obviously don't allow bad behaviour but you can stop children doing something without imposing a punishment. Nor should you over enthusiastically praise children simply for normal good behaviour. Saying thank you should be enough. In the long run its easier because you don't have to be constantly nagging and enforcing. But it's more effort when they're young. But not sure how that works in schools where children are already conditioned to a particular style

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