To ask would you still vote Tory after everything Boris has done and if so, why?

[bookworm1982]

My husband and I were talking about this over dinner and I'm genuinely interested in people's answers (not looking to wind anyone up).

[quote SpidersAreShitheads]@TirisfalPumpkin I think you've summed it up really well there. It's not that we're blind to the absolute shitstorm going on elsewhere but once women's rights are given away, we're never, ever going to get them back.

There's a trans women in charge of the rape crisis centre in Scotland. A trans woman who admits they lied on their application about their gender/sex/identity. A trans woman who says that women who are raped should "reframe their trauma" and accept a rape counsellor with a penis.

Trans women are increasingly being appointed to women's roles, and voicing their thoughts and opinions - which aren't based on a lifetime growing up as female. We're being spoken over and more than this, we're being put in danger - as evidenced by the intact males being put in a women's prison, even when they have a history of sexual violence against women.

It's like some kind of dystopian novel. It goes against every inch of my being - but if the other parties are just going to give away women's rights, what actual choice is there? The economy can recover - we'll never get women's rights back again.

It's a fucking awful awful dilemma.[/quote]
I agree that it's awful, but this is all happening under Tory rule in any case, so the Tories are hardly the great defenders of women's rights, even on that issue alone. Not to mention all of the other ways in which women are getting screwed over by this current government.

If Covid has shown us one thing it’s how bad for us low taxes are. All the countries with more intensive care beds than us pay more tax. Is that not a good thing?

@Morgan12

And as for any Scottish person who would vote Tory. There are simply no words.

And as for any Scottish person who would vote SNP, there are simply no words.

@Mountaingoat12

If Covid has shown us one thing it’s how bad for us low taxes are. All the countries with more intensive care beds than us pay more tax. Is that not a good thing?

By all means pay more. Could also say if Covid has shown us one thing, it's how the NHS is not fit for purpose and needs a reform. Yet people still cling to it like it isn't an outdated model.

@Hapoydayz

Yes I'd vote tory. The opposition parties are a very scary prospect in comparison.

Exactly. I voted for the tories, and therefore Boris, because the alternative was Jeremy Corbyn and Labour. I have never been so genuinely afraid on a general election day, that Jeremy would be Prime Minister. We sat down to watch the news when the exit polls were showing a Labour defeat and I have never be so relieved in my life. I have never stayed up so late to watch the results come in and been so relieved that they were not Labour. I haven't always voted Conservative. At the moment there is no alternative, credible party to vote for. The tories have made a mess of many , many aspects. In my opinion, and I am allowed my opinion, Labour would have done an even worse job.

@Diamondsapphire

IME, a lot of teachers seem to be in favour of trans rights and have swallowed the ‘trans women are women’ mantra, plaster their social media with ‘I’m voting Labour’ at election time and profess loud disgust at the idea of voting Tory. As do many public services, in fairness. But I am more than my teaching self, if you like.

IME most people tout live and let live when they think it's about hatred etc. It's been reframed very much like the fight for gay rights, with the things actually happening silenced.

When they find out that lesbians are being compared to racists for not wanting a male partner with a penis, that women are being incarcerated with men, that rape victims are having to accept males in same sex healing spaces, they don't really have much to say about that.

Be kind doesn't hold water in the face of such actions that are distinctly not kind to women.

@AlexaShutUp

The tories might know what a woman is, but that doesn't mean that they give a toss about their rights or their wellbeing.

Indeed.

This line of thought that the tories care about women is just insane.

@Mountaingoat12

If you think the Tories hate Scotland have you actually read an impartial view of the economic prospects of an independent Scotland? It’s absolutely staggering how much worse off Scotland would be.

The threat of economic ruin didn't stop Brexit so you might want to try a different tack on that.

A good example of why voting has turned tribal on this thread. Labour supporters and candidates instead of engaging with valid concerns:

Accuse people of being well off
Accuse people of being old
Accuse them of being one issue voters whilst telling them which one issue is more important than others(eg. Poverty, women's rights)
Call anyone with genuine concerns names like bigot, racist, gammon. Ignoring the concern in favour of name calling.
Bully those in their own parties who dare represent the nuances views of the public rather than tow the ideological idealised party line.
Never offer anything practical or achievable. Just sound bites.
Call people that vote for the conservatives thick. It comes across as very arrogant and dismissive of the voting public.

Although this started as a one issue voting thing for me, I don't think I can I see the nastiness of the party and their supporters. It's at least taught me to be a but more tolerant of others, so at least that is something.

I don't understand how anyone has voted for them ever tbh.

It genuinely confuses and upsets me that people do!

The only ones I kind of understand are very high earners with little social conscience who don't like how they're taxed and want a party that will protect their obscene assets.

Everyone else voting for them feels like some sort of collective self harm.

Low income
No income
Single parent
Disabilities
Women
Other minority groups
Public sector
Health professional
Teacher
Etc etc
They hate you and they give no shits about you or your life. They don't care if you starve.
They don't care if your children get a good enough education.
They don't care if the health service is run into the ground.
Their kids aren't sitting on a CAMHS waiting list for 12 months.
They're not using food banks or using credit cards and payday to cover their bills.
They're absolute scum.
Honestly they're laughing at all of us for being so fucking stupid.

And because I will never, ever, ever forgive the Lib Dems for saying that if they won the last General Election they would just cancel Brexit. That showed an blatant, arrogant, contemptuous disregard for both democracy and the wishes of the ordinary people of this country.

I’m genuinely confused by this argument.

If the Lib Dems had won the last election (long shot, obvs) on that manifesto, surely it would have been because it was the wishes of the majority of ordinary people of this country who had voted for that manifesto?

I honestly find it quite bizarre that one vote on Brexit is considered so untouchable that there can be no future democracy on the issue without accusations of arrogance and contempt.

@WorriedMumsDontSleep
'Being told I am stupid by the way, will not cause me to vote Labour.'

This, too. Even without the women issue, being spoken to with condescension and contempt (or people wishing you'd die, as we have just upthread) doesn't tend to be a hearts-n-minds winner.

@AngelinaFibres
'I have never been so genuinely afraid on a general election day, that Jeremy would be Prime Minister'

• me too. I was actually sitting up on election night with my then partner researching how to leave the country.

@WindyState
'This line of thought that the tories care about women is just insane.'

I don't think many people think that, even among female tory voters. They just haven't publicly made a commitment to dismantle our most basic rights. I'll take indifference and expediency (they want our votes) over active harm, as is the Labour offering.

@WorriedMumsDontSleep

A good example of why voting has turned tribal on this thread. Labour supporters and candidates instead of engaging with valid concerns:

Accuse people of being well off
Accuse people of being old
Accuse them of being one issue voters whilst telling them which one issue is more important than others(eg. Poverty, women's rights)
Call anyone with genuine concerns names like bigot, racist, gammon. Ignoring the concern in favour of name calling.
Bully those in their own parties who dare represent the nuances views of the public rather than tow the ideological idealised party line.
Never offer anything practical or achievable. Just sound bites.
Call people that vote for the conservatives thick. It comes across as very arrogant and dismissive of the voting public.

Although this started as a one issue voting thing for me, I don't think I can I see the nastiness of the party and their supporters. It's at least taught me to be a but more tolerant of others, so at least that is something.

And say death is a good cure for Tory voters. IMO when you have to insult someone, it's because you have nothing constructive to add to the debate. Tory voters don't engage on these threads much because there is no real point. But there are many Tory voters, just gotta look at the last few elections to show that. All have different reasons valid to them.

@AngelinaFibres can I ask why you were so afraid of a Labour/Corbyn government?

I agree that it's awful, but this is all happening under Tory rule in any case, so the Tories are hardly the great defenders of women's rights, even on that issue alone. Not to mention all of the other ways in which women are getting screwed over by this current government

You're not wrong @AlexaShutUp. They're absolutely not the defenders of women - they're an old boys club who couldn't give less of a shit about women's rights. But bizarrely they're the only ones defending biological rights and there are a number of (otherwise deeply unpleasant) senior Tory MPs - like Liz Truss - who loudly and vocally defend biological rights.

When you've got the leader of the Labour Party refusing to say who has a cervix and a female Labour MP unable to attend a Labour conference due to safety concerns because she said sex matters, then they're never going to stop the landslide. Labour have made it clear on their manifesto that they support self-ID, gender rather than sex etc. And I say all this as someone who really admires Keir Starmer.

Lib Dems are even worse.

So you're right.....the Tories aren't great, but they're the best we have. Once women's rights go there's no getting them back. All of the other shit, yes it's awful, but we can recover from that. And I have disabled DC, a disabled DM, the Tories are not the party to help me and my family. And still, I think they're the only chance we have to defend biological rights. If Labour got in, things would be infinitely worse.

I cannot believe it's come to this though. I just can't. I'm hoping that the tide that's beginning to turn will catch up with Labour before the next election and they magically announce a u-turn in gender politics. But I'm more likely to see a man grow an actual vagina himself than that happen.

@Solasum

I find it deeply saddening that the Conservatives in the current state they are are still the only viable option. How hard can it be to mount an opposition to this level of incompetence? And yet, I have no idea at all what Labour is about, and having initially been impressed by Keir Starmer now think he is a non entity. I think the only hope is if some of the many very good MPs who are currently lurking on the back benches throw their hats into the ring.

You are being deliberately obtuse.

Labour has been very clear about the policies they would enact to deal with the cost of living crisis for example. It's really not Labour's fault that most of the press and media refuse to give them any coverage.

As for most policies - there isn't an election. When there is, Labour will have a manifesto. There is literally zero point in having a manifesto now.

@WorriedMumsDontSleep

A good example of why voting has turned tribal on this thread. Labour supporters and candidates instead of engaging with valid concerns:

Accuse people of being well off
Accuse people of being old
Accuse them of being one issue voters whilst telling them which one issue is more important than others(eg. Poverty, women's rights)
Call anyone with genuine concerns names like bigot, racist, gammon. Ignoring the concern in favour of name calling.
Bully those in their own parties who dare represent the nuances views of the public rather than tow the ideological idealised party line.
Never offer anything practical or achievable. Just sound bites.
Call people that vote for the conservatives thick. It comes across as very arrogant and dismissive of the voting public.

Although this started as a one issue voting thing for me, I don't think I can I see the nastiness of the party and their supporters. It's at least taught me to be a but more tolerant of others, so at least that is something.

This...

Could never vote Tory but as lots of people said - they are the only party who (hopefully?) won’t pursue transrights over women’s rights. I used to vote Labour or Lib Dem but they hate women now.

(Clearly the Tories don’t respect women; they just don’t like change. The benefit that you only get - if you say you’ve been raped - caveat is a shocker of a policy).

The only problem is I’ve never voted Tory. Handing out £6 billion to Tory mates during the pandemic, chucking untested elderly into care homes, the lying, the bullshitting, the ducking, the diving… the sheer SECOND HAND CAR SALESMAN about it all…! Well it just ticks me off.

THERE IS NOBODY LEFT TO VOTE FOR!

With regard self ID I would point out this was a Tory idea. The rocketing number of trans children and trans women in womens prisons etc have all happened under Tory watch.

Personally, I am absolutely dead against self ID and have written to Labour, Greens and Lib Dems about it. Despite this the idea that the Tories care about women is absolutely laughable. I would guess that half the 120,000 (conservative estimate) people killed by Tory austerity over the last decade were women.

Oh and did I mention the collapse in rape convictions under Tory rule?

And say death is a good cure for Tory voters.

"Death is a cure for all ills" as Churchill said.

@Spilltheteaplease I used to not understand this but then i realized that 1 in 4 Britons are over the age of 65. Of course a lot of pensioners are on a very low income and struggle more than the young (cos at least the young have their health and fewer needs) but a sizeable proportion of them have private pensions and bought their house at a very favourable time. It is no use explaining to them how much young people need nowadays to have a decent life; it took my (left leaning) MIL ages to understand that i had to take out a £330k mortgage if I wanted a roof over my head (in London). She was left leaning so she thought that capitalism would fail and the house prices would crash so I could pick up a London flat at bargain basement prices. If she was tory, she would just have thought I needed to eat less avocado! she bought her house for 100k and raised 4 kids despite earning little; i wonder how someone in her situation earning 16k would manage raising 4 kids (would they be able to buy a house in london? Or even in the north on 16k)

if you have a decent pension and no housing costs and possibly invested in BTL off the gains in housing value and the kids are all grown up, you could have quite a nice standard of living. Its very different from a single parent nurse trying to feed her 2 kids and pay rent and pay childcare and pay for food. You may just think the nurse is feckless cos you were a nurse back in the day and you still managed to buy a house.

The biggest determinant of whether you vote tory or labour is age.www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/21/age-not-class-is-what-divides-british-voters-most

@Kendodd - completely agree.
So who on earth do we vote for?

Also with regard to my used car salesman rant… that should have said BAD SECOND HAND CAR SALESMAN because clearly some will be able to distinguish a party from a meeting by age of 50.