To ask would you still vote Tory after everything Boris has done and if so, why?

[bookworm1982]

My husband and I were talking about this over dinner and I'm genuinely interested in people's answers (not looking to wind anyone up).

You cannot claim to vote Tory to support womens rights unless you include all women - not just your fellow white middle class who oppose self ID, while turning a blind eye to what poor, POC and disabled women have dealt with under this leadership.

But yeah, men in toilets right?

[quote Blessex]@AlexaShutUp you do realise that the people that gender ideology affects the most are the disadvantaged in society right? Not middle class women. Women in prison. Women who are less literate and so don’t understand health messages asking them to come for a cervical screen if ‘woman’ is not being made explicit. Girls with autism who are being told they are ‘in the wrong body’ and put in irreversible puberty blockers and having their breasts and wombs removed. Women who go to a rape crisis centre and are told by the head of that centre (with penis) that they need to ‘reframe their trauma’. Young college women who are having to compete in sports against people born biologically a male and gone through male puberty.

You do realise all this right? In fact someone said to me - why the hell do you care about women in prison. Leave them be. Well I do. I just do.[/quote]
Yes, I do realise that. And I share your concern. I am not saying that it doesn't matter

I am just saying that I am even more concerned about the number of people who are seriously struggling to feed their children and heat their homes.

@hayley037

Do some people in some constituencies really only have 3-4 options on their ballot paper and not have any independent candidates they could vote for?

I usually have around 10 different options where I live.

If people continually vote Tory despite not wanting to and 'having no option' then they will always feel they have a green light to continue to engage in corruption and that injustices are okay. We'll also never see the end of the 18th century model of democracy we currently have with FPTP.

It isn't some people, it's most of us.

My seat has never had more than 5 candidates since it was created in 1885.

Using FPTP 99% of the time there is no point voting for independents.

@WorriedMumsDontSleep It is a losing battle.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-women-support-self-identification-transgender-people-boris-johnson-gra-a9616136.html

Majority of Brits across all age groups agree with Self ID. regardless of what the government of the day is, its a when not a if when Self ID is introduced. the tories are using culture wars to confuse voters into voting for them but when they are in need of some young voters, they will easily introduce self ID. Or may just introduce it when they are firmly in power and they can.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-women-support-self-identification-transgender-people-boris-johnson-gra-a9616136.html

@Butteryflakycrust83 we have already addressed this up thread. Its often the marginalised that are suffering under self id.

Female Prisoners
Rape victims
People with poor language skills
Young autistic or gay kids

And as to POC - google Allison Bailey.
As for Disabled - you want a trans woman with penis looking after your SN female daughter ?

But jog on with your ‘middle class issue’ only. This one is going to come and bite a lot of people soon.

@AlexaShutUp yes me too. And that’s why this is so monumentally shit. But as said upthread once women’s rights are thrown away we won’t get them back. So I have to put a stake in now.

@onlychildhamster that’s the non-independent Independent newspaper. Yep it’s shit because most people don’t really know what it means at the moment. But light is being shone. The Times gets it.

[quote Blessex]@Butteryflakycrust83 we have already addressed this up thread. Its often the marginalised that are suffering under self id.

Female Prisoners
Rape victims
People with poor language skills
Young autistic or gay kids

And as to POC - google Allison Bailey.
As for Disabled - you want a trans woman with penis looking after your SN female daughter ?

But jog on with your ‘middle class issue’ only. This one is going to come and bite a lot of people soon.[/quote]
That is ONE issue that effects them.

Everything else gets disregarded.

If Boris quits, we have had three PMs quit in a row after making horrendous choices. Yet apparently the party are the only option? Okay then.

"what Labour did with the economy" 12-14 years ago... even if it was their fault (which it was a worldwide recession so clearly it was not Labour's fault but anyway I digress), holding them accountable over a decade later is ridiculous.

And on that note, what have the conservatives done economically that is so great? If you care about the working class at all, if you want a better standard of life, please for the love of god vote anyone but Tory. Please don't kid yourself that you are doing the good of the country by voting Conservative, you are voting because YOU are okay under them. Just be man enough to admit that.

@Blessex Gen Z is different from my generation (millennials). Millenials came of age during the financial crisis and we were concerned the most about economic inequality. Also racial inequality because people of colour were disproportionately affected by the recession and the austerity programmes in developed countries. And immigrants/refugees were blamed for the country's economic woes. Gen Z seems far more obsessed with identity and how they are perceived by others.which might be why changing your sexual identity is part of that.

Which is why I don't think it would change. This generation reminds me of the 1960s hippies, they will make some big changes in how society perceives things forever.

@Christoncrutches

I am constantly amazed that English people consistently vote for a party of utter fuds who give no shits about anyone but themselves. It's a collective madness that never seems to end - what do they have to do for people to wake up.

Keir Starmer is a bit 'blah'? So fucking what! He's not Boris Johnson. Surely a below par Labour Party is still preferable over this craven and corrupt shower of fuckwits... Why is the standard so high for Labour and so low for Tories?

I don't think I'll ever understand it.

My thoughts exactly....

Am a Labour member... But would vote lib/green if Corbyn was still leader... Namely over his non opposition leadership anr alsp his EU stance.

@WorriedMumsDontSleep

Being dismissed as thick/scum by rude, self-righteous tribalists has no impact on my voting choices, if anything I'm happy not to be aligned with them. Yes I cringe at what I used to be like. At least moving away from tribal politics has made me less actively twattish.

I'm sure I still am twattish but at least now it is not intentional.

I feel very much the same. I'm know I've been horrendously judgmental in the past but I'd like to think I have a) more nuance and understanding that things are not as black and white as our divided society would perpetuate, and b) more respect for others' views now. People choose what they perceive to be the path of least harm and we may well disagree with how that's defined. That doesn't necessarily make them wrong, or give me the right to sit in judgment on them.

I voted LibDem last time and have hope that they, or the Greens, or Labour, or SOMEONE will wake up and become the party I dream of - socially liberal, economically moderate, has climate change as their priority, is not struggling with anti-semitism or racism, knows what a woman is, and ideally would have been remain for Brexit but now tries to make the best of where we are re: our closest market. As far as I can tell, I would like a government made up of left-wing Tory Europhile environmentalists and old-school Labour types like Alan Johnson.

This is my political dream. It's the dream of so many people I know. So where the fuck are they?

@Alayalaya

I will only vote for parties who respect biological reality and don’t try to erode women’s rights. So that’s Labour ruled out. It seems like voting Conservative is the only option unfortunately.

Can someone please tell me how this lie keeps going? Self ID is on the table because of proposed Tory reforms to the GRA. Liz Truss didn't bother going to the committee to put forward the case for women's rights. Penny Mordaunt is a Conservative minister and trans activist. Crispin Blunt MP is a trans activist. This Conservative government have an 80 seat majority, they could sort this out. But they haven't.

Can anyone tell me why all the other parties are being blamed, when this is a Tory created shitshow?

@Butteryflakycrust83 no. Nobody is saying we are disregarding anything else. The point is that once women’s rights have gone we won’t get them back. So whilst it is utterly shit, at the moment the most important thing for me is to cling onto those rights. Because once gone they are gone.

Most of the public think a trans women I'd either
A) A woman (biological) who affects a male looking presentation
B) A homosexual man who has had his penis removed and hormones to negate advantage(can't be done by the way)

So I'm not sure people polled would know the true implications of self I'd.
I think most people understand the need for single sex spaces.

@TooBigForMyBoots it’s a good point. However the brakes were put on self id by the Tories. Thank goodness. Now that is SNP and Labour policy. And there are a very few promising shoots coming through from the Tories on this front. The female fringe events at the Conservative party conference (which I watched). Patel telling police to stop reporting male crimes as female. It’s small but it’s there. Much more so than from the Labour Party (dinosaurs - Lammy, cervixes - Starmer, rapist allowed in female prison - Nandy, MP too scared to go to their conference - Duffield etc)

@Blessex my SIL is proud that she doesn't read any newspapers. She probably gets her views from some forum for young people, and I can see that would make you much more radical. in contrast, my DH and I read the Guardian and FT online and this shapes our views. My colleagues in my age group; i can see them browsing the BBC online at work.

I don't want to say all Gen Z is like that, but I do think that the social media generation is more likely to get news from unsubstantiated sources (kinda like some older people who think their facebook feed is news and personally addressed to them and thus ended up with some weird far right views). my SIL had a huge giant argument with my DH about self ID in bathrooms because of that. She said her online trans friends looked like women and so should be allowed in the bathroom. my DH said, ok then I should identify as a woman and go into bathrooms! she got very tearful at that and said it wasn't the same thing... My Dh said he could wear a skirt....She then showed me endless pictures of trans women... I am not sure how you can persuade people like that...

I am not sure how you can persuade people like that...

Show her the victims. Several victims have gone public. Keira Bell who was put on a medical path when vulnerable; a woman refused to start a closed same sex tape crisis group when a trans, men's and women's group already here run, leaving trans women with three options and women who don't want to discuss their trauma with men with none, a prisoner who was sexually assaulted by a transwomen in prison. You won't find these in the Guardian though so I suggest you expand your reading. I used to read exclusively liberal publications and it contributed to my closed mindedness.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10406351/amp/I-sexually-assaulted-transgender-rapist-womens-jail.html

I'm not going to apologise for posting a Mail article because people should be reading from a variety of sources.

Plus as a thicko I like the bullet points.

She said her online trans friends looked like women and so should be allowed in the bathroom

I look a bit like Kathy Burke. Should I be allowed free reign to her house?

If thems the rules I could clean up.

@WorriedMumsDontSleep

www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10406351/amp/I-sexually-assaulted-transgender-rapist-womens-jail.html

I'm not going to apologise for posting a Mail article because people should be reading from a variety of sources.

Plus as a thicko I like the bullet points.

It's an awful story and it is exactly what people predicted would happen and we were assured that it wouldn't.

But the fact remains that this happened on a Tory watch. I still don't get how voting for the Tories is meant to protect women from this shit?

I have never voted tory and with the way they are all treating women, it looks like I will be spoiling my vote next time.

I don't believe any party offers much hope for the future. They promise what the public want and deliver what the rich need to keep rich.

I don't think it is as easy as voting for the party you like when the local mps are questionable. I am in a newly labour led area and the labour mp was caught breaking covid rules during the pandemic in the first lockdown! Previously I lived in a Conservative area and that MP has never been disgraced that I know of, isn't afraid to call out bad behaviour amongst his colleagues and seems to get things done so if the 2 were head to head I would vote the Conservative

I never understood the point of spoiling your vote.

You're never going to find a party where you absolutely agree with all their policies, so either vote for the one you find least bad or vote tactically to prevent the one you like least getting in.

I have to say I much preferred the politics of a few years ago when both Conservatives and Labour appeared to be much more centrist.

I still don't get how voting for the Tories is meant to protect women from this shit?

I don't think it will stop the onslaught, but there is enough evidence (Patel telling police to not record crimes by preferred gender for example) that it will slow it down.

Yes, Conservatives are absolutely culpable. Although not just them. Wasn't Lammy on the original GRC push through panel? But they've started backpedaling, probably because they have either realised how unpopular it is, or else realised the implications, both moral and financial.

Myself, as I said previously I waver between spoiled vote and Conservative. But ultimately I will do what is most effective at keeping Labour out till they commit to protecting women.