Is MN middle class? Feeling inadequate and that my life is boring.

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Is MN mainly full of middle to upper class posters?

Having read through some of the threads, especially tonight's holiday thread where everyone appears to be having multiple holidays this year, I'm feeling very low and inadequate, and that there's something wrong in my life

Oh well, comparison is the thief of joy and all that.

Ughhhh.... Lost the last half of my post. Basically wanted to say that many poor immigrant families propel themselves 'up' by making major sacrifices that most white British people wouldn't do. Only's DH and sibs were FSM children, so deemed poor.

Everyone has some level of privilege over someone. I know a woman my age (40s) who got a council flat in Maida Vale in her teens because her parents also had a council house (in London). In those days there was some sort of automatic right to be placed at top of list at 18 if you were currently in a council home. This is a massive privilege to me, because majority of people could not afford that. She has actually bought a house in London that she rents out, because she wants to remain in her flat so that she can pass the tenancy on to her dc in the future.

@CiaoForDiNiaoSaur how do I find the holiday thread you're talking about - I'm relatively new to MN so still finding my way around, but it sounds interesting!

@dafey

Plenty of people don't have the space for dc to stay with them or are not in a good location.

Absolutely. Everyone's circumstances are so different.

My mum had a box room that I was always welcome to. She didn't even charge rent, she just expected contributions to energy bills and for me to do plenty of household chores.

She also happened to live down a long dirt track, between a sheep field and a river, a 2 hour muddy walk to the nearest train station which saw approximately 4 trains a day, which got you to the nearest town in as little as 90 mins.

It was impossible to commute to any jobs. Even with a car it would have been very difficult.

@Kanaloa I am not saying that I am not grateful. I am very grateful. You could also say that it is a privilege not afforded to people whose parents didn't have the foresight to purchase london property in the 1990s. I mean that is the case for many people from families richer than my MIL who tended to move out of london pre 1990. Many of my colleagues are the children of those families who live in the commuter belt. They have either had to stump up £400-500 per month to commute or more likely move to London and pay rent just to get a job. And while such families are statistically more likely to be able to give their children deposits, that isn't the case for everyone. A lot of things can be a privilege.

Having enough food to eat is a privilege when 1 in 10 households (9.9%) are in food insecurity. Heating is a privilege in a way cos many people can't afford to eat. Having a bed is a privilege because apparently there are kids out there with beds. We should all be grateful for having beds and food and heating but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't recognize who are truly privileged in society. And you should always compare yourself relative to your own area. there is such regional inequality in the UK we might as well be in different countries. I wouldn't compare myself with someone who lived in Indonesia where many live on less than US$1 per day. By that token, the british people on benefits look like kings compared to that!

People on benefits are privileged because other people are poorer and you’re not privileged because you were able to live rent free and save for a house deposit, putting you at an advantage others don’t have? Okay. If you’re that desperate to deny you were privileged in this area then I will stop arguing with you.

I have been accused of ‘trolling’ quite a few times - simply because I live in central London, am a SAHM, 4 kids in independent schools etc. But there are millions of people like us and they are just as likely to be in MN as someone on benefits.

You are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think there are millions of people like you.

They don't think they are but they are. To them earning 50-100k is normal.

The vast majority of people do not share the Mumsnet lifestyle. Don't beat yourself up.

I’m MC but we can’t afford a holiday abroad. The best we can do is the Lakes, not that I mind that! My DC have never been abroad aside from DC1, we took him to Paris as a baby. Haven’t been able to afford it since so that’s that. We go to the Lakes, London, or the Dales. DH and I are both ‘professionals’ but we also have a 5 bedroom house and 5 DC to raise so not much going spare .

@seekinglondonlife My Dh used to have a colleague who is muslim (very strict) and couldn't take out a mortgage. She was saving to buy her house in cash. House in East London. To me, being able to buy your house in cash is the stuff of fantasy, something I associate with very rich overseas buyers. But she was living with her DH with her parents and 4 sisters. she told my DH she was getting quite close to her goal. I wouldn't consider her privileged though, i think she was from a fairly poor family. But maybe a lot of people on Mumsnet might consider her privileged because she was able to buy in cash.

When I was campaigning against Brexit, I talked to this lady who told me she was voting for Brexit because the British tradesmen like her dad were not as privileged as the Eastern Europeans. She said they were able to live 8 to a room and were able to send back money to their families; while a british family man with a house and kids, well 'he can't do that, love'. To me, this sounded very very strange! You are envying a poor immigrant on minimum wage for living in overcrowded conditions just because one day he might achieve something you can't have i.e. better retirement (due to lower cost of living in poland), better purchasing power in poland (so kids in poland might have nicer life than poor children in uk when supported by uk earnings). It just smacked of complete xenophobia.

I've just assessed myself and realised the only thing MC about me are my Ariat dog walking wellies
Oh well...
It has never occurred to me to care. I'm reasonably educated (degree level) with generations of teachers as parents but a Forces husband and 4 children has meant part time earnings forever. But we are warm, have a house (small, unimpressive) and can pay our bills, drive old cars. Last had a family holiday in 2014 and are REALLY hoping to get to Australia if they let us in, as I haven't see my son since lockdown started. Saving for that!

I deliberately change details of my life so I'm not recognised. So I imagine those talking about holidays might do the same.

MN is like social media to some. They give the best edited version of their lives. I don't share my frustrations at getting out of the door in the school run or my child having a melt down before bed. If you went by my FB you'd think I have a perfect life. Maybe for some this tips over into MN even though anonymous?

I have friends who prioritise holidays. They also have a good income. But they work for it. Long hours and lots of study when younger. Stress. So that is the flip side of most high earning roles.

@Waxonwaxoff0

I don't think class is money based. It's more to do with your background and upbringing. If I won the lottery it wouldn't suddenly change what class I am. I went to school with a woman who now does OnlyFans, she's made a lot of money from it but she's hardly middle class.

Quite. Many football players are millionaires. They are still pretty much all working class. Rugby Union players however are usually middle class, regardless of what they earn (class was a defining aspect of the Union/League schism).

[quote onlychildhamster]@seekinglondonlife My Dh used to have a colleague who is muslim (very strict) and couldn't take out a mortgage. She was saving to buy her house in cash. House in East London. To me, being able to buy your house in cash is the stuff of fantasy, something I associate with very rich overseas buyers. But she was living with her DH with her parents and 4 sisters. she told my DH she was getting quite close to her goal. I wouldn't consider her privileged though, i think she was from a fairly poor family. But maybe a lot of people on Mumsnet might consider her privileged because she was able to buy in cash.

When I was campaigning against Brexit, I talked to this lady who told me she was voting for Brexit because the British tradesmen like her dad were not as privileged as the Eastern Europeans. She said they were able to live 8 to a room and were able to send back money to their families; while a british family man with a house and kids, well 'he can't do that, love'. To me, this sounded very very strange! You are envying a poor immigrant on minimum wage for living in overcrowded conditions just because one day he might achieve something you can't have i.e. better retirement (due to lower cost of living in poland), better purchasing power in poland (so kids in poland might have nicer life than poor children in uk when supported by uk earnings). It just smacked of complete xenophobia.[/quote]
Hamster, you are somewhat guilty of similar prejudices here.

You've just referred to a hypothetical Polish tradesman as a "poor immigrant". You then gone on to assume he would be on minimum wage, and that his overcrowded living conditions are somehow not a specific choice on his part.

Said Polish tradesman is likely to be bilingual (maybe even trilingual), has had the benefit of (in my view) a superior and more organised state education system and training in trades, and has taken the opportunity to work abroad to improve his financial situation by undercutting local labour costs.

In short, he's not a "poor immigrant"; he's a clever sod with his wits about him and the willingness to take a short period of shite living for a big wad of cash. He wouldn't be doing it if the zloty were at parity with the pound.

Crikey, it's exactly the same motivation as Brits going to work in Dubai. They ain't going there because they love the sand and the sound of the oud.

Poor immigrant, bloody hell, hamster. It's not as though they are disembarking at Manchester airport, dressed in rags with nothing in their pockets but dust and despair.

@Packingsoapandwater her specific complaint was they were working for very low pay akin to minimum wage. Which of course if you want to buy a house and have kids like most british tradesmen want to, you probably can't accept minimum wage.

Its a bit different from British people going to Dubai. Dubai lacks skilled labour in many fields and therefore companies would pay handsomely for skilled labour to work in a country with 40 degree celsius heat and a legal system which is not favourable to women/LGBT people and where there may be more restrictions to western style freedoms. I don't think many British expats are living 8 to a room in Dubai. There is a big difference between an expat and an economic migrant.

The polish tradesmen usually come here on their own dime, while some do end up earning well, most of the eastern europeans here do not earn well and do the jobs that many british people are not willing to do. But they do benefit because they are willing to cut living costs to the bare minimum in order to help their families back home. I wouldn't say its comfortable to do so, but they are willing to do it for the sake of social mobility. I wouldn't say its enviable, just different people take different decisions. Its like that in every country, immigrants/minorities generally have to reduce their costs to continue living in metropolitan areas or areas with jobs as their aim of leaving friends and family is social mobility (and it is usually harder to get a well paid job as a newcomer; may take years). Different for an expat with an expat package! The locals usually feel less of a need to, as they can generally afford to live more comfortably even if in the long term, the immigrant may end up saving more money.

Packing an EE tradesman coming to stay in very overcrowded, often dangerous HMOs is nowhere near Brits going to live in Dubai!

Yes it is in answer!

There is a big difference between an expat and an economic migrant.

I would argue Brits in Dubai are economic migrants.

do the jobs that many british people are not willing to do.

This is an argument that has been used time and again. There's a bit missing off the end. It should read: "do the jobs that many British people are not willing to do at that wage level, or cannot do because the British education and training system prevents them from qualifying to do the job."

There was a significant issue in the early 2000s with young Brits unable to qualify in certain trades because they could not get apprenticeships, due to employers being required to pay NMW for trainees that couldn't actually do much work towards their business in the early days. So we had classes of prospective plumbers, plasterers, joiners etc who simply could never start working in that trade.

The government's response to this was to fill the resultant skills shortage by encouraging EU8 tradesmen to work in the UK.

It's like that in every country, immigrants/minorities generally have to reduce their costs to continue living in metropolitan areas or areas with jobs as their aim of leaving friends and family is social mobility

Young Brits do this to live in cities where the jobs are. They too live in shitty house or flat shares. We've had a situation where young Brits have found themselves constantly sofa surfing in order to work in the Capital.

My issue with your post was that it read very much as "othering" Polish people, and positioning privilege according to assumptions about Brits and Poles. You used the term "poor immigrants" to describe Polish tradesmen. Would you say that about an Italian plumber who came to the UK to work? Or a Greek web designer?

You reveal your prejudices. In truth, huge numbers of young Polish people were in a fair better situation to compete in the European marketplace of the time than young Brits. The idea that a young Polish plumber who had been brought up in a flat in Nowa Huta post-communism is somehow less "privileged" in either an economic, social or cultural sense than a working class lad from a Middlesbrough council estate is just bizarre.

Definitely.

@seekinglondonlife

Packing an EE tradesman coming to stay in very overcrowded, often dangerous HMOs is nowhere near Brits going to live in Dubai!

If you read what I said again, you will realise I said it is "exactly the same motivation".

I did not say it was the same; I said it was the same motivation.

Polish tradesmen were coming to Britain to work because they could earn more than they could back in Poland. Brits are going to Dubai to work because they can earn more than they can in Britain.

Same motivation: money.

@Packingsoapandwater I had colleagues who were greek accountants. young graduates. they lived in flat shares but generally with partners and friends. Had their own room, or if they were a couple, shared a 1 bedroom flat. standard of living wouldn't break any laws. As a londoner, i am familiar with how a lot of people live to work in the Capital. I don't know anyone who lives 8 to a room. They live in studios, 1 bed flats and maybe share a house with 4 other people, but they usually have their rooms. I know a HK guy who shared a room with his girlfriend in a house share, room was £600 per month, so they each paid £300, but I don't think that is overcrowding in the same extent as 8 to a room.

Yes, they have the same motivation - but the topic was privilege - and they are poles apart and not comparable.

[quote onlychildhamster]@Packingsoapandwater I had colleagues who were greek accountants. young graduates. they lived in flat shares but generally with partners and friends. Had their own room, or if they were a couple, shared a 1 bedroom flat. standard of living wouldn't break any laws. As a londoner, i am familiar with how a lot of people live to work in the Capital. I don't know anyone who lives 8 to a room. They live in studios, 1 bed flats and maybe share a house with 4 other people, but they usually have their rooms. I know a HK guy who shared a room with his girlfriend in a house share, room was £600 per month, so they each paid £300, but I don't think that is overcrowding in the same extent as 8 to a room.[/quote]
Right, so your argument is that Polish tradesmen should be described as "poor immigrants" because they made a decision to live in the modern version of a London doss house so they could save more money from their earnings?

Okay.

At this point, I probably ought to say that my mother was Polish, and so I know a lot of the local Polish community: post-war second and third generationers and EU8s.

The only Polish immigrants to Britain that I would describe as "poor immigrants" were the post-war refugees, who really did come to Britain with nothing: no language skills, no realistic employment skills, no money and just the clothes on their backs.

Polish EU8ers are nothing like that. They are enterprising bilingual people who saw an opportunity and took it. More power to them.

That does not, however, mitigate against the economic impact their arrival had upon British working class communities. And Hamster's reaction of "xenophobia" to someone who expressed their feelings about that impact is one of the core reasons why the Red Wall fell.

@Packingsoapandwater fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-and-jobs-labour-market-effects-immigration/

The available research also shows that any declines in wages are likely to be greatest for resident workers who are themselves migrants. This is because the skills of new immigrants are likely to be more similar to the skills of migrants already employed in the UK than for those of UK-born workers.

the data shows that the people most likely to be impacted by the new EU arrivals are descendants of previous EU arrivals, not the natives themselves. On the whole, immigration has a small impact on local wages.

I lived in a room in a house share with my partner in London over 30 years ago. We had our own room. Is that really considered a doss house now?

You can be whoever you want to be online OP. If you do your homework you can travel quite cheaply, I’m not talking SC Spain either. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.