Regarding how child maintenance is spent?

[souperdouper]

This isn't me. Honestly. We had dinner last night with a friend who has a bit of a dilemma so I thought I'd bring it here.

Friend is well off but via work not inheritance. He still works in a salaried position. Recently he divorced from his wife. Honestly it was a model divorce. They'd grown apart, wanted different things but are very friendly for the sake of the children. He bought a flat close to his ex wife with rooms for the 3 children, she got the house, plus a lump sum she invested plus gets £6000 a month spousal support /child support. Friend also pays all school fees as well.

Recently he noted that the children weren't getting things. The oldest said that his mum hadn't sent him on the school trip all his friends were going on because it was too expensive. Horse riding stopped. No holiday. That sort of stuff.

So... the dilemma. She has a fully paid off house, investments and 6 grand a month. Friend was wondering where money was going...

It appears her brother who has 2 slightly younger children was unhappy with their state school. He has a good job but school fees are expensive and he couldn't afford to pay for 2 children (years 7&8.) It appears my friends wife has agreed to fund his children's private education throughout secondary school which apparently doesn't leave much left over for her children's expensive extras. Apparently her investment money isn't accessible atm.

Now the AIBU- friend is thinking of just taking on all additional expenses for his children. So trips, riding, other expensive requests. However, while he's well off he's already left each month with a lot less than his ex-wife because he's paying another mortgage for his flat, and this is even more cost to him- because she's funding private education for two children who aren't his. Things are further complicated by the fact he sees the children as his nephews and is fond of them (although their parents have been a bit unpleasant to him post divorce.) DH said he was mad and should take legal advice. I'm on the fence a bit- his wife's lovely and I can see wanting to help family but it seems cheeky. However it is her money (well the spousal support bit is, but isn't some of it supposed to be child support?) and no child ever died due to the lack of a skiing holiday.

Anyway DH and I just don't think it's right but AWBU?

"playing lady bountiful to her brothers DC whilst her own DC’s lifestyle does suffer."

Do we know why this is happening? I can think of reasons why she might feel like she needs to support her nephews if she can.

Her kids are hardly suffering - no ski trip, cancelled riding. Annoying and I'd want to know why but not suffering.

So after mediation, this gentleman who works for a dodgy industry and earns enough to pay his ex-wife £72k a year, didn’t have solicitor to get him a clean break order?

Curiouser and curiouser

Spousal is calculated on NEEDS and child maintenance is a universal formula (until earning go beyond £120k).

That’s only true if you go through the CSA. That formula doesn’t apply at all if it’s court ordered (save that it can’t go below CSA amount, as CSA would still have jurisdiction to enforce a higher amount. In the courts, as part of the financial settlement, it’s all based on needs.

And you can agree what you like between yourselves

@twominutesmore

"playing lady bountiful to her brothers DC whilst her own DC’s lifestyle does suffer."

Do we know why this is happening? I can think of reasons why she might feel like she needs to support her nephews if she can.

Her kids are hardly suffering - no ski trip, cancelled riding. Annoying and I'd want to know why but not suffering.

According to OP the ex-wife is paying her brother DC’a private school fees.

@Sowhatifiam

No way he is legally obligated to pay £6k a month as well as signing the property over

Are you part to his salary, Form Es from both parties, a history of how the relationship worked, pension arrangements, etc etc?

It could well be the case that £6k is a good deal for him. There is no way of knowing unless you happen to be the solicitor who dealt with it all.

Seen as though child maintenance is capped, and spousal maintenance is by no means guaranteed to be granted by the court, I would eat my hat if he was legally mandated to pay anything around £6k- especially if she had the house and a lump sum.

"We have a friend who works in Family law we could suggest he talks to."

Does a man with £6k per month to spare really not know how to seek legal advice?

Are you sure you are just his friend? These sorts of threads are usually started by the new partner.

"Seen as though child maintenance is capped, and spousal maintenance is by no means guaranteed to be granted by the court, I would eat my hat if he was legally mandated to pay anything around £6k- especially if she had the house and a lump sum."

I have a friend who gets £10k per month plus £2m house and school fees.

When there's a lot of money in the pot, those sorts of splits are not uncommon.

Putting aside the glaring plot holes in the information provided, it's just tough that she's not spending the money on what he thinks she should be spending it on. Once the money leaves his account and enters hers, she gets to make the decisions on what it is spent on and that's true whether it's 60p or £6000.

I would eat my hat if he was legally mandated to pay anything around £6k- especially if she had the house and a lump sum

No court order, no pension sharing order. That’s why he’s being good about it all.

He needs to take his ex-wife to court. Funds are being mis-appropriated.

@frazzledasarock

So after mediation, this gentleman who works for a dodgy industry and earns enough to pay his ex-wife £72k a year, didn’t have solicitor to get him a clean break order?

Curiouser and curiouser

Honestly I really don't know the ins and outs of the agreement and how it was managed. What I'm gathering from all the supposition is that legal advice is a must.

There was a lot of talk about doing the divorce the adult way. Remaining friends. They went on a family holiday after the divorce came through. Genuinely it looked like 2 people who still really care d about each other managing things in a way that is fair and keeps the children happy. Until this.

He's a clever man but not a mean one. It's possible to do well in life without being a shark and he's lovely. He's very very very clever in something niche that pays extraordinarily well and hence he's where he is. She was his first real girlfriend and frankly he's unlikely to meet anyone else as he isnt looking.

Seen as though child maintenance is capped

No cap on child maintenance. Once it ceases to be within the jurisdiction of the CMS, it just goes to the courts to deal with.

He needs a frank conversation with his ex that the money is for his children to include activities. She should not pay for her brothers son . If she continues to pay he should pay her less ( the amount she gives her brother ) then pay for the children's activities direct himself.

How did he find out about her paying for / contributing too the school fees of the nephews?

To my mind she is very very silly not to have had this formalised in a court order. He could renege on it at any stage. It wouldn’t be an unreasonable amount of spousal and CM if the pot is big enough and it maintains their previous standard of living.

Im probably the only one - It's a little cheeky but I think it's actually lovely that she is giving her nephews a private education over extra nice have elements for her own kids.

It is a bit that she divorced due to her husbands work commitments but still takes the money. Not sure why she bothered with divorce

He really doesn't need a "frank conversation" or to reduce the money like some sort of punishment.

Could you imagine how the thread would go if it was titled "I don't agree with how my ex is spending the maintenance money I agreed to pay her. AIBU to tell her to stop it or else I'll reduce the money?"

That man would have his arse handed to him.

Just to play devil's advocate.... From her point of view she probably doesn't think she's a CF.

If my little brothers children were suffering in a sink school, whilst mine were in a private school, I wouldn't be happy knowing that by adjusting our extras I could change things.

So we have to give up ski trips and horse riding? Do we actually know what she's given up too?

How happy would you be to know they are having a really rough time when you are living in the lap of luxury?

So I believe this is a real dilemma, I'm not saying I'd be happy if I was the ex-husband foking out 6k though!

But he’s a big boy, clearly v successful. Let him
fight his own battles / seek legal advice etc etc. It’s not your business to be getting it irate about.

indeed - he needs a conversation with her. If she will not pay for the extra-curricular activities, he will reduce the amount paid and pay for them himself. He's not a cashpoint. The money is meant to be for the benefit of his own children. If she doesn't need it for them, then she should be saving it for the future.

Personally I would suggest he funds the school fees, trips and extra curricular directly plus funds uniform and clothes, pays cms to the correct level, perhaps pays utilities and council tax for the house then gives a less generous spousal. This way he knows all kids needs are taken care of first. Ex wife should be looking for a new job, I had to!

@LemonViolet

Seeing as it’s a voluntary arrangement , I’d say think about reducing how much he pays her and using that money for to pay directly for the riding and ski trips etc (what a lovely problem to have btw!!). After taking legal advice and making sure it’s still well above the legal minimum obv. She’s taking the piss really isn’t she, and needs to work.

I agree, @LemonViolet, he can talk to his children about activities and fund them directly. Then reduce the CM portion by that amount at least.

She shouldn't be spending their children's money on her nieces/nephews. She can spend her money (the spousal support) on them if she wishes, and reduce her own expenditures.

@Hospedia

He really doesn't need a "frank conversation" or to reduce the money like some sort of punishment.

Could you imagine how the thread would go if it was titled "I don't agree with how my ex is spending the maintenance money I agreed to pay her. AIBU to tell her to stop it or else I'll reduce the money?"

That man would have his arse handed to him.

There could be all sorts of reasons why she ended the marriage!! My ex and I have a general explanation that we tell people about our relatively amicable divorce. He certainly doesn’t boast to his friends that he withdrew sex years ago and prioritised his obsession with right wing politics above all else inc his family …

Of course it’s morally wrong for her to use money intended for the children in such a significant way.

Is he seriously paying this much maintenance?? He is crazy - unless the kids are pre-school she needs to retrain to do something, it’s a bad example to the kids.

He should see a lawyer, and reduce payments, covering all the costs directly that he can.

well to echo everyone else ,he does need to take legal advice , she sounds like a nice bit of work , her own children dont get to horse ride or go on their trips or holidays , but shes making sure all the stuff that benefits her directly is getting paid still and so your friends kids are effectivly losing out to the nephews and their own mothers gain !!

shes clearly not heard of sacrifice when it comes to your own children has she ?
i was under the impression that spousal support and child maintance were two seperate things and so this is where he needs to get proper advice really ,
if he had the advice it might be found hes overpaying her in which case she will have to cutback all her expenses , and her brother would have to fund his own kids private education

@MaryAndGerryLivingInDerry

If you want to be pedantic and short sighted, feel free.

It’s not pedantic and short sighted, it’s accurate. That is her money to spend as she pleases.

It's not hers. It's what she's currently getting from someone else. After saying that's what she "needs" for living expenses.

Do you feel the same about child benefit, universal credit, job seekers, state pension?

No, because that's not based on the generosity of someone you've taken the piss out of, by pretending you need £6k a month, so you can give £4k to your brother. Especially when that someone can renege on that voluntary agreement.

Not the same as government support.

It's "her" money today, sure. She's managed to pull it off for a handful of months. Whoopy doo.

However, in the real world, it's going to stop pretty imminently. Hardly something to call "hers" because she's had a few months worth.