Regarding how child maintenance is spent?

[souperdouper]

This isn't me. Honestly. We had dinner last night with a friend who has a bit of a dilemma so I thought I'd bring it here.

Friend is well off but via work not inheritance. He still works in a salaried position. Recently he divorced from his wife. Honestly it was a model divorce. They'd grown apart, wanted different things but are very friendly for the sake of the children. He bought a flat close to his ex wife with rooms for the 3 children, she got the house, plus a lump sum she invested plus gets £6000 a month spousal support /child support. Friend also pays all school fees as well.

Recently he noted that the children weren't getting things. The oldest said that his mum hadn't sent him on the school trip all his friends were going on because it was too expensive. Horse riding stopped. No holiday. That sort of stuff.

So... the dilemma. She has a fully paid off house, investments and 6 grand a month. Friend was wondering where money was going...

It appears her brother who has 2 slightly younger children was unhappy with their state school. He has a good job but school fees are expensive and he couldn't afford to pay for 2 children (years 7&8.) It appears my friends wife has agreed to fund his children's private education throughout secondary school which apparently doesn't leave much left over for her children's expensive extras. Apparently her investment money isn't accessible atm.

Now the AIBU- friend is thinking of just taking on all additional expenses for his children. So trips, riding, other expensive requests. However, while he's well off he's already left each month with a lot less than his ex-wife because he's paying another mortgage for his flat, and this is even more cost to him- because she's funding private education for two children who aren't his. Things are further complicated by the fact he sees the children as his nephews and is fond of them (although their parents have been a bit unpleasant to him post divorce.) DH said he was mad and should take legal advice. I'm on the fence a bit- his wife's lovely and I can see wanting to help family but it seems cheeky. However it is her money (well the spousal support bit is, but isn't some of it supposed to be child support?) and no child ever died due to the lack of a skiing holiday.

Anyway DH and I just don't think it's right but AWBU?

@MaryAndGerryLivingInDerry

I would say you’re not getting the full story OP. No woman cancels her own children’s riding lessons and school trips so she can fund private school for her brothers kids.

There's a massive backstory but yes it's entirely probable she'd do this for her little brother.

I think he needs a rethink - even if she was in performing arts there are plenty of other options - voice overs type thing - she just "let it go" she now needs to reconsider - maybe a descending spousal support would be better ie more now reducing etc - it can't go on for ever. Maybe pay for a coach for her for a bit get her thinking. It is clearly too much if she is paying for her niece and nephew out of it. If I were him I would be paying directly for external activities for the kids and also uniform and clothes shopping.

Sounds to me like she is not used to actually managing money and has been talked into this arrangement with her brother

So the school fees she's lording about "oh yes, of course I'll pay those" are around £3.7k a month for 2 kids that aren't hers.

She spends 2/3 of what she gets, on her brother's kids.

Well clearly that's not ok. And the very fact she's just done it, with the absolute confidence the ex will just shell out even more for all her shortcomings because of it, tells you how much of a mug she has him down for.

The £40k donation to her brother ('s kids) stops and it stops now. And the father needs to pay her the amount she's due. That way she won't toss it about so flippantly.

She is taking the absolute piss.

Hmm, it does seem like something isn't adding up. Would she see her own children go without (!) to send her nephews to private school? If her brother can't afford private school then that's tough. His kids will have to do their best in the state system like the vast majority of children. I think if she continues this then your friend is within his rights to get a formal agreement set up and spend the money directly on the children. It's entirely irrelevant what job she did before. She must have the basic capacity to turn her hand to a different job. Unless she sees that as beneath a lady of her comfortable lifestyle.

I'd say you have half the story OP. His version. I wonder how different his ex-wifes version of events would be.

The £40k donation to her brother ('s kids) stops and it stops now

How dictatorial about what someone else does with their own money. she can donate as much of her own money to whoever she likes.

OP I would personally tell him to get legal advice and stay well out of it. But if you insist on being involved then make sure you know the facts. Which of course won’t be possible.

I don't think we need to get too hung up on the spousal support. Presumably, it was negotiated when they split and was ratified by court order. It can indeed go on forever, or for twenty years, or for as long as was agreed. If she chooses not to work, and doesn't need to, then well done to her for negotiating that.

But cutting extra curricular stuff that the kids enjoyed so she can support her brother's children seems off and I think he needs to have a conversation with her to check the facts of the situation.

I doubt there's much he can do about it legally, but he can make his feelings known.

I don’t think legally there is anything he can do. She is providing for the children, just not at a higher level your friend would like. I can totally understand why he’d be miffed but I think he needs to let it go. He can’t tell her the best way to spend the money. That’s her decision and it’s hardly like the kids are starving whilst she gambles the cash away.

@guardiansofthegalaxychocs

I don’t think legally there is anything he can do. She is providing for the children, just not at a higher level your friend would like. I can totally understand why he’d be miffed but I think he needs to let it go. He can’t tell her the best way to spend the money. That’s her decision and it’s hardly like the kids are starving whilst she gambles the cash away.

Actually this is incorrect. If he is paying more than CMS for the kids element of support after 1 year he can go to CMS instead.

Yes, as it's a private arrangement he can go to court to determine a new payment.

She's taking the piss. He needs to ask her wtaf she is playing at letting him fund other people's kids. Reduce the monthly payments and pay his for his kids activities himself

@DorothyZbornakIsAQueen

I'd say you have half the story OP. His version. I wonder how different his ex-wifes version of events would be.

I know her financial details and they've both been very open about it (and I am still friends with her which is feeling awkward now) and I also know the backstory with her brother which explains why I can believe she'd pay his children a fees. Sadly it's probably all true.

He has a good job but school fees are expensive and he couldn't afford to pay for 2 children (years 7&8.) It appears my friends wife has agreed to fund his children's private education throughout secondary school which apparently doesn't leave much left over for her children's expensive extras. Apparently her investment money isn't accessible atm.

Is she paying the fees or subsidising them?

Either way if I was your friend I’d pay for my childrens extras but reduce the money to ex wife. No one needs £6k a month to live off. She can also get another job.

@Waspsarearseholes

Hmm, it does seem like something isn't adding up. Would she see her own children go without (!) to send her nephews to private school? If her brother can't afford private school then that's tough. His kids will have to do their best in the state system like the vast majority of children. I think if she continues this then your friend is within his rights to get a formal agreement set up and spend the money directly on the children. It's entirely irrelevant what job she did before. She must have the basic capacity to turn her hand to a different job. Unless she sees that as beneath a lady of her comfortable lifestyle.

You see the kids aren't going without as such. They're fed well, housed in a lovely place, lovely schools etc. They're just missing on some nice-to-haves. It's actually a bigger issue as eventually friend will reduce payments after children have left university an what will she do then? A smarter woman would be saving/ investing/ getting a pension.

@SmallElephant

Yes, as it's a private arrangement he can go to court to determine a new payment.

I doubt it will be a private arrangement with those sums involved. I expect it is subject to a court order. He could go to court and apply to vary it if circumstances have substantially changed, but wouldn't succeed just because she's not spending it how he thinks she should. That would be a dangerous precedent whether one spouse is paying £60 or £6000pm I think.

If he is paying more than CMS for the kids element of support after 1 year he can go to CMS instead

If he is earning more than £2K per week, which seems likely, the CMS don’t have jurisdiction. The courts will need to sort it. If she has a global maintenance order, which also seems likely, any reduction in child maintenance would be compensated for by an increase in spousal and vice versa. It does depend, of course, how it was all agreed and whether a court order exists - if no order, he can do what he wants but expect a courts summons pretty quickly (and he will need to account for his actions in front of a judge so needs to be very clear with the facts); or if there is an existing order, even if done by consent, he will need to return to court to AKS for it to be changed. Whether that would be granted is anyone’s guess and will depend, most likely, on what he is able to prove is happening and how much he actually has coming in.

*ask

"A smarter woman would be saving/ investing/ getting a pension."

She has an investment that may be her pension.

She has a substantial house that she can sell to release equity.

I don't know why she's paying two lots of school fees but don't think it's anyone's business how she spends her maintenance really, although he can have that conversation if he feels that they're missing out.

It's a shame if their amicable arrangement suffers for it though.

she can donate as much of her own money to whoever she likes

It's not her money though is it. It's a higher than necessary payment being provided for her children. And she's giving to her family at the detriment of the children it's intended for.

So yeah. The acting like she's a multimillionaire, lording it about when she can't afford it, stops.

Either she gets a grip and stops it herself and provides for her children with the large amount she's being voluntarily given. Or, the amount is reduced, to the actual amount she's entitled too. Then she can't play "Lady School Fees" even if she wants too.

That's not how a court order works though.

It's not her money though is it.

It 100% is.

And when he raised the issue with her, which of course he has done because that's how co-parenting works, what did she say?

Or let me guess, he hasn't actually discussed the ski trip etc with his ex, just had a moan with you?

I think legally speaking he is going to struggle to denote how the money is spent. But as some PP have said, what he should do is calculate what he is legally liable to pay.

From memory, for every £1 over £120k it's c15%. BUT that is not a hard and fixed rule and the Courts will take into account many variables. But if he is paying school fees he could in part deduct that, though usually that's a big negotiation point. But to be paying £6k per month he'd need to be earning £300k+. And if he is paying c £5k per month school fees for his own children on top.

He'd have to reduce the monthly payments so as to not enable her to pay the brothers school fees, but if the house is in her name and she has further funds that are due to her she may get a bridging loan or sell the house in order to fund the fees.

Maybe he needs to get her to use the investment money for the brothers children? If he can unlock that? That way she hopefully won't make the children go without in the short term. Obviously this may leave her short later in her life but it's not going to be his problem and I'm sure the brother will be sure to look after her...

I'd suspect a conversation with her would be the first best option.

Oh also, Critical will be the split of spousal and child maintenance. How is that split? Spousal is calculated on NEEDS and child maintenance is a universal formula (until earning go beyond £120k).