To think Pope Francis is talking out of his arse here?

[CounsellorTroi]

Says couples who prefer pets to children are selfish. It’s a bit rich from someone who effectively chose not to have children when he became a priest.

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/05/pope-couples-choose-pets-children-selfish

@youvegottenminuteslynn

Of course you can have an opinion but doesn’t mean it is going to influence any others who have chosen to be Catholic.

I'm not trying to do influence catholics. I'm simply pointing out hypocrisy where it's so very, very clear as I find it awful that a religion claiming to be loving and compassionate is hypocritical.

I do think that people who are part of a religion should keep themselves updated on the behaviour within the organisation and be prepared to challenge it. Otherwise a code of silence operates and as we know, thousands of children have suffered due to the crimes committed by a large number of Catholic priests.

I grew up in a Catholic family, went to Catholic school etc. I am atheist but many family members I love are still Catholic. Thankfully, they are open to challenging parts of the organisation that are corrupt, unloving and hypocritical. For example the use of funds from congregations:

[[https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/vatican-uses-donations-for-the-poor-to-plug-its-budget-deficit-11576075764]]

Procreation is a basic commitment of any Catholic marriage so shouldn’t be a problem to anyone who had a Catholic marriage

How dismissive of people who are Catholic and cannot procreate.

I am Catholic and can’t procreate, not personally anyway!

Catholicism is compassionate if you choose to follow the laws of the faith,. I would say the majority, rather than the minority, move away from the faith at some point in their life. If they change their mind and want a way back in their is compassion and forgiveness.

Awful things have happened in the church and I can honestly say I don’t know anyone who denies or wants to hide these things. Unfortunately there are evil people everywhere and there is no question the church was far far too slow in tackling this - I hope this is never the case again and every parish I know has so much in place to ensure it doesn’t. That’s not denying it happened but accepting there were evil people in positions of authority rather than the whole church being evil.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

A dictator in a country is not someone everyone in the country has chosen. If you are Catholic you have chosen to be Catholic.

Ok, so an elected leader in another country. One I don't live in but other people elected democratically. Am I allowed to have and share an opinion on them or is that wrong of me if it doesn't directly affect me as an individual?

I can't imagine being so self involved as to only care about things that directly involve me as an individual.

The world condemned many of Trump's actions, for instance. Should they have all kept quiet?

What a strange way of thinking.

As I said of course you can have an opinion but without fully understanding of the church and the faith of the people your opinion is unlikely to sway many catholics. That doesn’t mean you can’t have an opinion

Catholicism is compassionate if you choose to follow the laws of the faith

Some are truly the opposite of compassionate. For example, Catholic teachings say a man who is impotent or cannot achieve erection should not enter into a Catholic marriage as he cannot consummate the marriage. How terrible that must feel for such a man. How isolating and cruel.

I would say the majority, rather than the minority, move away from the faith at some point in their life.

And yet you say that hearing challenges to the faith is 'unlikely to sway catholics'? It's hearing those things that encourages many to think critically and lessen the cognitive dissonance required to maintain the faith. That isn't my aim, as I said, but it's odd you on one hand say people are unlikely to sway catholics then also acknowledge the majority of catholics leave the faith at some point.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

Catholicism is compassionate if you choose to follow the laws of the faith

Some are truly the opposite of compassionate. For example, Catholic teachings say a man who is impotent or cannot achieve erection should not enter into a Catholic marriage as he cannot consummate the marriage. How terrible that must feel for such a man. How isolating and cruel.

I would say the majority, rather than the minority, move away from the faith at some point in their life.

And yet you say that hearing challenges to the faith is 'unlikely to sway catholics'? It's hearing those things that encourages many to think critically and lessen the cognitive dissonance required to maintain the faith. That isn't my aim, as I said, but it's odd you on one hand say people are unlikely to sway catholics then also acknowledge the majority of catholics leave the faith at some point.

On your first point - this is not strictly true and it is taken on a case by case basis, sex is an important part of marriage. Without Sex a marriage can fall apart so for the church to marry a man who can never have sex they need to understand the relationship can last. I’m not a priest so I am sure there are other things. I do actually have a relative who married without her husband having the ability to have sex.

Leaving the church - what I was referring to was that sometimes it is too hard and many people try to find an easier way, many then return (prob not all) because they feel it is the truth. The ones who are not going to return can no doubt be swayed but the ones who will return are unlikely to be. Exploring, rejecting, fighting your faith is all part of the pathway.

I don’t wAnt to offend anyone, I am not a spokeswoman for the church and am only offering my opinion.

I long ago stopped listening to men pontificating (in this case literally).

@MindfulnessHelps

Smorgasborb Why are we giving airtime to this head of an abusive cult?

I have complained about this comment, and Mumsnet see no problem.
I wonder would they let a similar comment about the Islamic religion stand?

You can have your view on the Catholic Church. I have no problem with that. There is no need to be offensive about it.

I know you'd love to think that you are being martyred but no I think the same about all religions and I would say the same about any of them too. The Abrahamic ones are worse obviously. None of them have a place in modern society and we should not be giving their leaders any airtime or credence to their controlling partisan views

Absolutely spot on and cats/dogs cant fill the void of a perverted priest either @KTB19

...don't give him any ideas

@Fridafever

I find it funny people are surprised at this - the pope, quite famously, is catholic.

This, I don't necessarily agree with him but Catholicism is what it is. People believe or they don't, they agree or they don't. Live and let live and all that. He's head of the church, of course, he's going to believe and say this, why wouldn't he? Therefor it shouldn't be of any great surprise. I don't really agree with it so I don't read it and let him get on doing his stuff for the people who do. Am I offended? no. We are all different and should be allowed to think different things, we don't have to listen to or like each others opinions.

He's obviously just a puppet for the Corporate monster that is running (and at the same time destroying) the planet, requiring an ever expanding population to keep the whole unsustainable consumption based economic model operating.

I think he's got a point that it's a shame to substitute a pet for a child and presumably his comment is driven by the problems of an aging population in Italy (confirmed by PP who is Italian).

We have a woman at work in her early 30s who calls herself a mother of her pets. She empathise with the parents in the group by comparison of pet stories to children stories 🙄

Becoming a priest is the opposite of selfish so I don't think you can call him out on that. They spend their lives helping others.

@Smorgasborb

I’m offended, not martyred.
You do know what being martyred entails?

Procreation is a basic commitment of any Catholic marriage so shouldn’t be a problem to anyone who had a Catholic marriage

How dismissive of people who are Catholic and cannot procreate.

What about Catholic women beyond childbearing age? Are they not allowed to marry? Or remarry if they have been widowed?

Concerning the suggestion that the atholic church (and some others) are "cults", I came across this well used definition:

Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability
No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry
No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget or expenses, such as an independently audited financial statement
Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions
There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil
Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances
There are records, books, news articles, or broadcast reports that document the abuses of the group/leader
Followers feel they can never be "good enough"
The group/leader is always right
The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible

On the vast majority of those, it sounds pretty much like a cult to me ...

What about Catholic women beyond childbearing age? Are they not allowed to marry? Or remarry if they have been widowed?

They can marry, so can widows. The Catholic Church does believe Mary was a virgin but she was a one off, they're not expecting post menopausal women to get pregnant. The commitment is to not impede a pregnancy rather than committing to definitely get pregnant. That's why they don't agree with IVF, children are a gift from God and should be left up to him basically. You're not supposed to influence it either way apart from choosing to have sex.

That's why they don't agree with IVF, children are a gift from God and should be left up to him basically.

I'm adopted. I feel extremely lucky to have been.

My parents weren't given a gift from god and if it were left up to 'him', my parents would have been childless as they weren't given the gift of procreating from god. They were naturally infertile so god didn't want them to procreate.

And in ultimate irony, had I been born a few years earlier my birth mum would have been put in a laundry and been removed at birth even if she wanted to keep me. So god wouldn't have sanctioned my birth mum getting pregnant, the religion punished her for doing so and I was adopted by parents that god didn't want to the 'gift' of a child to my parents.

What a 'gift' god viewed me as to treat a mother and baby that way... and what a loving god to view my parents that way...

@ZenNudist but why is it a shame if they’re happy? I don’t know anyone childfree who has a pet as a ‘substitute’, they have pets because they want pets.

People have children because they want them. It is of course inherently selfish, which tbh is only a problem if you characterize selfish as wholly a bad thing.

Obviously numbers of Catholics are falling which will of course affect the income of the church. It's the usual. Catholic and any church are just there to make money.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

That's why they don't agree with IVF, children are a gift from God and should be left up to him basically.

I'm adopted. I feel extremely lucky to have been.

My parents weren't given a gift from god and if it were left up to 'him', my parents would have been childless as they weren't given the gift of procreating from god. They were naturally infertile so god didn't want them to procreate.

And in ultimate irony, had I been born a few years earlier my birth mum would have been put in a laundry and been removed at birth even if she wanted to keep me. So god wouldn't have sanctioned my birth mum getting pregnant, the religion punished her for doing so and I was adopted by parents that god didn't want to the 'gift' of a child to my parents.

What a 'gift' god viewed me as to treat a mother and baby that way... and what a loving god to view my parents that way...

I was just trying to answer the question about marriage and procreation. I'm not a practicing Catholic and I'm sorry to read about your birth mother's situation. I'm glad you were adopted and that it was a good experience for you.

@WrongWayApricot