To think Pope Francis is talking out of his arse here?

[CounsellorTroi]

Says couples who prefer pets to children are selfish. It’s a bit rich from someone who effectively chose not to have children when he became a priest.

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/05/pope-couples-choose-pets-children-selfish

He's the head of the Catholic Church, an organisation which is staunchly in favour of procreation and children. What he said wasn't shocking or inappropriate at all. I agree with him - lavishing all your love on an animal does have an element of selfishness (I say this as someone who loves her pets to bits, especially when I was ttc and had a miscarriage), as animals will not challenge your bad behaviour and are not difficult to love, unlike children. Animals require less sacrifice and are less all-consuming. While some people have children for the wrong reasons, generally speaking procreation and raising children does require a great deal of self-effacement. Leaving aside those who cannot have children and instead channel their need to love and nurture onto their pets (which I sympathise with) , I do agree with him on some level - in Japan people have more dogs than children; luxury, absurdly priced petshops are ubiquitous as people opt to spoil their animals rather than go through the ordeal of raising a human being. Of course that is selfish on some level.

Given how over-populated the world is (and getting worse) I think choosing childlessness is one of the best things you can do for both the planet and your fellow human beings. It's no more selfish than having children because you want them.

It's what religions do - make sure their faithful breed to keep the numbers up and growing. Why expect anything different?

Yet again it is infertile people who are told they should adopt. Why not suggest it to fertile people, who are equally able to apply?

Having a pet or child is a false dichotomy. Pets are an interest some people have, while someone else might enjoy sport, gardening or going to the pub. They aren't a 'child substitute'.

@WindInTheWillows7

He's the head of the Catholic Church, an organisation which is staunchly in favour of procreation and children. What he said wasn't shocking or inappropriate at all. I agree with him - lavishing all your love on an animal does have an element of selfishness (I say this as someone who loves her pets to bits, especially when I was ttc and had a miscarriage), as animals will not challenge your bad behaviour and are not difficult to love, unlike children. Animals require less sacrifice and are less all-consuming. While some people have children for the wrong reasons, generally speaking procreation and raising children does require a great deal of self-effacement. Leaving aside those who cannot have children and instead channel their need to love and nurture onto their pets (which I sympathise with) , I do agree with him on some level - in Japan people have more dogs than children; luxury, absurdly priced petshops are ubiquitous as people opt to spoil their animals rather than go through the ordeal of raising a human being. Of course that is selfish on some level.

Don't be absurd. There is nothing more selfish then procreating. You are not doing this for the benefit of humanity but for your own reasons. No one cares if it means you are more thoughtful as it's only towards to your own offspring. Overpopulation is the main reason for climate change and why this planet may not exist to permit your precious children to live a life that doesn't end In them gasping for clean air or water.

I love Pope Francis.
But that does seem an odd thing for him to say.

Having kids doesn't prove that you are some sort of extra caring human specimen. People without kids still have relationships, friendships and family and navigate their way through this world in exactly the same way all humans do! Some of the most community minded, integrated, sociable people I know have no kids.
And I don't believe that people generally see their pets as a substitute for a child, it's entirely different.
Why doesn't the Pope actually address the issue of climate change for once, and the impact that it will have on millions of his community who are already living in poverty?

@MmeSosostris

He has previously made a comment about women/motherhood. Where does that leave those who can’t have children/gay people who can’t adopt or are single?

The Catholic Church isn't famously concerned about the rights and welfare of gay people.

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation

One of my cats is a Catholic. She's not going to be happy when she hears about this.

One of the Archdiocese's is run by two cats. They will be furious!

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation my cats are also both Catholic!

Not read the whole thread ;
Why doesn't he allow Catholic priests to marry and have children?
Change the rules ?

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation you win the thread!

I see this as him meaning, not enough catholic or christian women are having children, compared to other faiths, mainly islam. Probably worried about future of the Vatican reading stuff like this.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/muslim-babies-outnumber-christian-births-2035-islam-relgion-popular-fastest-growing-a7669576.html

@GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing

I don’t know how he came out with this as he seemed quite reasonable until this point!

Same, I was surprised by this comment.

The news makes it clear that not everybody has the emotional or financial resources to care for a child. Bringing them in to the world and then failing to nurture them is not something that anybody in a position of power (his voice is heard) should be doing. Really crazy message to try and put out there.

My first thought when I heard it was 'oh great, another stick for my very Catholic mother to beat me with'

I've had two abortions as I intensely dislike babies/children. Never made any secret of it, don't feel any sort of shame about it. I had the sense to realise it when I was 9, vowed I wouldn't have children and stuck to it.

Having children because your religion says you should, when you aren't slightly maternal and will turn out to be a abusive neglectful parent - looking at you, mother - is far more selfish as far as I'm concerned.

So yeah, he can fuck right off.

I am a bit confused as to why anyone finds this offensive. He was talking to the people who want to take some notice of him, which he is perfectly entitled to do. What he can't do is compel anyone to take any notice or change their lives in any way so what is the problem with him saying something you don't agree with? You can just unsubscribe.

He's the pope and a member of the catholic church.

Being a bit unhinged comes with the territory.

Not sure anyone should take notice of what a Catholic figurehead says, particularly about marriage/having children etc, given their usual views on these topics, and in light of the many, many child abuse scandals (and surely many more which have not been allowed to come to light).

@WindInTheWillows7

He's the head of the Catholic Church, an organisation which is staunchly in favour of procreation and children. What he said wasn't shocking or inappropriate at all. I agree with him - lavishing all your love on an animal does have an element of selfishness (I say this as someone who loves her pets to bits, especially when I was ttc and had a miscarriage), as animals will not challenge your bad behaviour and are not difficult to love, unlike children. Animals require less sacrifice and are less all-consuming. While some people have children for the wrong reasons, generally speaking procreation and raising children does require a great deal of self-effacement. Leaving aside those who cannot have children and instead channel their need to love and nurture onto their pets (which I sympathise with) , I do agree with him on some level - in Japan people have more dogs than children; luxury, absurdly priced petshops are ubiquitous as people opt to spoil their animals rather than go through the ordeal of raising a human being. Of course that is selfish on some level.

There are many people with both children and pets. It’s not a choice, pets or kids. Not everyone wants or likes children. Are they selfish for not having them? Labeling someone as selfish (on some level) for living the one and only life they have the way they choose is pretty unkind.

On all the comments about abuse, I don't find them funny to joke about because they happened to real people. The vast majority of the clergy are deeply ashamed of these and parishes now have safeguarding rules in place to protect against similar abuse.

The priests who committed the abuse have likely condemned themselves to hell for the wickedness of their actions as well as all the people they have turned away from the church as a result of their actions. By the way schools & orphanages have a lot of abuse also - again this has to be addressed but should we close them all down?

With regards to Pope Francis, not his greatest fan, but I don't read that he is saying don't have pets or that every woman must have multiple children and stay home to serve her husband. I read that to choose not to have children because you place your material comfort and "perfect" life above having a child is selfish. I know many people who say they would have another but are going to get a dog instead to complete their family - I agree with Pope Francis on this. So many of us strive for material possession and perfection which is not possible.

@Threewheeler1

Having kids doesn't prove that you are some sort of extra caring human specimen. People without kids still have relationships, friendships and family and navigate their way through this world in exactly the same way all humans do! Some of the most community minded, integrated, sociable people I know have no kids. And I don't believe that people generally see their pets as a substitute for a child, it's entirely different. Why doesn't the Pope actually address the issue of climate change for once, and the impact that it will have on millions of his community who are already living in poverty?

Not everyone is made to have children and you are absolutely right that it doesn't make them a lesser part of society. When I was at school a large number of my teachers didn't have children and thought of their teaching as an all consuming vocation in life - I don't think you can read the Pope's comments as applying to absolutely everyone!

Again plenty of people have children and are awful parents - he is making a general comment rather than addressing every single case.

I think the way the world is going one thing the vast majority of people can agree on is that we don't need the population to keep increasing endlessly

He is out of touch

With regards to Pope Francis, not his greatest fan, but I don't read that he is saying don't have pets or that every woman must have multiple children and stay home to serve her husband. I read that to choose not to have children because you place your material comfort and "perfect" life above having a child is selfish. I know many people who say they would have another but are going to get a dog instead to complete their family - I agree with Pope Francis on this. So many of us strive for material possession and perfection which is not possible.

Not everyone who chooses not to have children does so because they value material comfort and possessions more. Some just don’t want to, some know they wouldn’t make even “good enough” parents.

@newusername2009

On all the comments about abuse, I don't find them funny to joke about because they happened to real people. The vast majority of the clergy are deeply ashamed of these and parishes now have safeguarding rules in place to protect against similar abuse.

The priests who committed the abuse have likely condemned themselves to hell for the wickedness of their actions as well as all the people they have turned away from the church as a result of their actions. By the way schools & orphanages have a lot of abuse also - again this has to be addressed but should we close them all down?

With regards to Pope Francis, not his greatest fan, but I don't read that he is saying don't have pets or that every woman must have multiple children and stay home to serve her husband. I read that to choose not to have children because you place your material comfort and "perfect" life above having a child is selfish. I know many people who say they would have another but are going to get a dog instead to complete their family - I agree with Pope Francis on this. So many of us strive for material possession and perfection which is not possible.

A child is the ultimate in material possessions.

@newusername2009

I read that to choose not to have children because you place your material comfort and "perfect" life above having a child is selfish.

Genuine question - why? If someone doesn't want a child for any reason why is that selfish? Why are the obligated to do so? And more importantly, why do you want children to be born to people who don't really want them?