To think Pope Francis is talking out of his arse here?

[CounsellorTroi]

Says couples who prefer pets to children are selfish. It’s a bit rich from someone who effectively chose not to have children when he became a priest.

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/05/pope-couples-choose-pets-children-selfish

I wondered if it was a preamble to announcing that he has a hoard of secret children from a series of affairs

Doubtful, but even if such children existed I don't imagine we'd hear about them given the Vatican's taste for secrecy

As was once said, "A Catholic priest is called 'Father' by everyone except his own children, who are obliged to call him uncle"

Italy will need a more open immigration policy going forward. I’m not surprised the Pope has said this, even 1 child policy China is trying to encourage three children now.

@heyhoehey

Isaiah 54:1-6

The Message

"Spread Out! Think Big!
54
1-6 “Sing, barren woman, who has never had a baby.
Fill the air with song, you who’ve never experienced childbirth!
You’re ending up with far more children
than all those childbearing women.” God says so!
“Clear lots of ground for your tents!
Make your tents large. Spread out! Think big!
Use plenty of rope,
drive the tent pegs deep.
You’re going to need lots of elbow room
for your growing family.
You’re going to take over whole nations;
you’re going to resettle abandoned cities.
Don’t be afraid—you’re not going to be embarrassed.
Don’t hold back—you’re not going to come up short.
You’ll forget all about the humiliations of your youth,
and the indignities of being a widow will fade from memory.
For your Maker is your bridegroom,
his name, God-of-the-Angel-Armies!
Your Redeemer is The Holy of Israel,
known as God of the whole earth.
You were like an abandoned wife, devastated with grief,
and God welcomed you back,
Like a woman married young
and then left,” says your God."

So the Bible suggests procreation is not everything. This shows how someone's influence can still spread far and wide without having biological children. In fact you'd probably have more time for other people.

Why would the Pope say what he did?

I find this ironic given that Orthodox Judaism views having children as a religious imperative and women who do not have them for whatever reason have zero status.

He should consider the children his church and their ilk murdered in Canada and across the globe and shut the fuck up.

I find this ironic given that Orthodox Judaism views having children as a religious imperative and women who do not have them for whatever reason have zero status.

I think that is exactly the reason this is said! @CounsellorTroi. Basically, it is balance. There is a context whereby not having children is good. People say the Bible contradicts itself, I don't believe it does if you take into account the context for everything. In one context one thing is right but in another the opposite action is right.

And as far as the Pope goes, I suppose he felt it was a message that needed saying to his congregation at this particular time. I'm not part of his congregation and even if I was that particular message might not have been applicable to me. As I say, the Bible shows how not having biological children can be a good thing. For some, the Pope's message might prick their conscience as they have made a more selfish choice but many's choice to remain childless does not come from selfish motivations, I would think. I suppose it's an antidote to the claims having children is selfish, at least.

Dogs and cats are not somehow more environmentally friendly than children. Their diet is almost 100% meat. The pet business (producing masses of plastic toys and non-decomposable products) is one of the biggest industries in the UK.

Do the people claiming declining population is a problem have any numbers to back up their claims? (To be clear, I'm not disputing that there will be decline, I'm disputing that decline is a problem.)

What proportion of young people do they think it will take to look after old people, given a specified rate of population decline?

Why does it matter if the economy shrinks, as long as GDP per person is not decreasing?

It was only a matter of time before people realised that Pope Francis is a Catholic.

I did at one point idly Google "Is Pope Francis a Catholic" and came up with some genuine hits written by rather annoyed very conservative Catholics!

@GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing

I don’t know how he came out with this as he seemed quite reasonable until this point!

Reasonable? The man claims to be god's representative on earth. Unreasonable on so many levels.

The West has had its time in the lead. The East is rising and a strong but sensible population growth has been at the heart of it. Human capital is a key strength of some of the nations that are growing in economic and political strength.

I saw his comment as one based on fear of the increasing strength of other parts of the world.

@stairway

Italy will need a more open immigration policy going forward. I’m not surprised the Pope has said this, even 1 child policy China is trying to encourage three children now.

Bloody hell.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

I wondered if it was a preamble to announcing that he has a hoard of secret children from a series of affairs

Doubtful, but even if such children existed I don't imagine we'd hear about them given the Vatican's taste for secrecy

As was once said, "A Catholic priest is called 'Father' by everyone except his own children, who are obliged to call him uncle"

Love the final paragraph here @Puzzledandpissedoff . Very very true! Uncle this and uncle that! When Uncle had had his way with the young beauties of the town.

I do wish the pope would say something about the following:

Racial injustices
Women's rights
Poverty and wealth in developing countries
Dictatorships in Africa
The drugs and arms trade in Latin America
Child trafficking in Europe and Asia

Now that he has let us know the word on the street in the Vatican, how about he considers what the real world is facing.

@TeaAddict235

Racial injustices
Women's rights
Poverty and wealth in developing countries
Dictatorships in Africa
The drugs and arms trade in Latin America
Child trafficking in Europe and Asia

What connection are they to the Church?

If anything, the Church has been vocal about many of those things and urged change - particularly racial injustice , drugs and arms (very vocal), dictatorship (massively vocal as always has been, child and adult trafficking (always vocal on this).

The RC church is constantly talking about these things and the problems that create them, ways to resolve them and who and what create the obstacles for change but I think you have be involved in a church community to see this.

@MmeSosostris the topics i mentioned are very much so connected to the church, and the Catholic church indeed. Many of the communities which are such staunch supporters of the Catholic Church are found in Africa and Latin America where these topics are so pertinent. These are daily topics which affect the lives of the financial contributors to the Vatican.

I am not only a Christian, but have heritage in the above mentioned communities. I have been an active member of a free church, a Church of England, And the Pentecostal Church; at various points in my life. I have a reverend for an aunt and various pastors for uncles, so I think that I am clued up as to the word on the Christian streets. If the pope has really so much to share, why does he stay quiet on my non exhaustive list?

I can send you a you tube link to my church service if yer like. Zoom church or Zurch as it is known in the inner circle?

Smorgasborb
Why are we giving airtime to this head of an abusive cult?

I have complained about this comment, and Mumsnet see no problem.
I wonder would they let a similar comment about the Islamic religion stand?

You can have your view on the Catholic Church. I have no problem with that. There is no need to be offensive about it.

MindfulnessHelps I’m afraid to say that often similar stuff is said about Muslims and Islam all the time on mumsnet.

@stairway
That is awful. Sorry to hear that is allowed by mumsnet

I assume those of you who are outraged by his statement aren't Catholic?

Because if you are then it's hardly surprising that the Catholic Church advocates for married couples to procreate 🙄

If you're not Catholic then the message wasn't to you, you can move along and look for other things to get triggered by...

If you're not Catholic then the message wasn't to you, you can move along and look for other things to get triggered by...

This logic is very strange.

If for example a dictator in a country I'll never visit says something I passionately disagree with and I think is damaging in general, am I not allowed to have an opinion on it and share that opinion?

It wouldn't make me 'triggered', it would make me a person with thoughts and feelings.

If you're religious yourself then maybe reflect or ask for guidance on how to speak to us pesky atheists with a bit more of the compassion and empathy religions like to use as a selling point.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

If you're not Catholic then the message wasn't to you, you can move along and look for other things to get triggered by...

This logic is very strange.

If for example a dictator in a country I'll never visit says something I passionately disagree with and I think is damaging in general, am I not allowed to have an opinion on it and share that opinion?

It wouldn't make me 'triggered', it would make me a person with thoughts and feelings.

If you're religious yourself then maybe reflect or ask for guidance on how to speak to us pesky atheists with a bit more of the compassion and empathy religions like to use as a selling point.

A dictator in a country is not someone everyone in the country has chosen. If you are Catholic you have chosen to be Catholic.

Of course you can have an opinion but doesn’t mean it is going to influence any others who have chosen to be Catholic. Procreation is a basic commitment of any Catholic marriage so shouldn’t be a problem to anyone who had a Catholic marriage

Of course you can have an opinion but doesn’t mean it is going to influence any others who have chosen to be Catholic.

I'm not trying to do influence catholics. I'm simply pointing out hypocrisy where it's so very, very clear as I find it awful that a religion claiming to be loving and compassionate is hypocritical.

I do think that people who are part of a religion should keep themselves updated on the behaviour within the organisation and be prepared to challenge it. Otherwise a code of silence operates and as we know, thousands of children have suffered due to the crimes committed by a large number of Catholic priests.

I grew up in a Catholic family, went to Catholic school etc. I am atheist but many family members I love are still Catholic. Thankfully, they are open to challenging parts of the organisation that are corrupt, unloving and hypocritical. For example the use of funds from congregations:

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/vatican-uses-donations-for-the-poor-to-plug-its-budget-deficit-11576075764

Procreation is a basic commitment of any Catholic marriage so shouldn’t be a problem to anyone who had a Catholic marriage

How dismissive of people who are Catholic and cannot procreate.

Smorgasborb - how on earth is a child the ultimate possession. They don’t do as they are told, they don’t look as you would want them to, they are not perfect and they cause you so much distress because you constantly worry about whether you are making the right choices for them. Not a possession at all because in the grand scheme of things who you have them for such a short space of time, not ultimate because they don’t look, sound or behave how you thought they would.

Of course they give a huge amount of joy and having experience pd infertility I am extremely grateful for mine but I would not think of them as the ultimate possession at all!

Over population is on the fall so don’t worry - if people continue not wanting to have children out population will decline. Why do you think countries like Germany, France and China are promoting having more children

A dictator in a country is not someone everyone in the country has chosen. If you are Catholic you have chosen to be Catholic.

Ok, so an elected leader in another country. One I don't live in but other people elected democratically. Am I allowed to have and share an opinion on them or is that wrong of me if it doesn't directly affect me as an individual?

I can't imagine being so self involved as to only care about things that directly involve me as an individual.

The world condemned many of Trump's actions, for instance. Should they have all kept quiet?

What a strange way of thinking.