AIBU- home birth social media support groups are f’ing dangeorus **Content warning - title edited by MNHQ**

[Namechangetimes100]

I’m in a few Fb home birth groups as I was planning to have one til the service got suspended, had an MLU birth instead and was absolutely fine! I’ve not left the group yet (probs should) but some of the advice given is fucking dangerous as hell.

The advice is free birth left right and centre. Birth at home for a pre term (35 week plus) baby, the woman did and the baby needed resus this was met with almost rapturous applause and more recently refuse induction or action for iugr. I mean ffs this advice can kill as well as the doctors = evil mentality.

I do totally believe and support informed consent and I do think that choice isn’t often presented to women in obstetrics and sometimes induction is made to seem like the only choice when it isn’t. I was coerced into induction with a ‘constitutionally small’ baby based on old guidelines so I’m sympathetic to a point to some of these opinions. But to even contemplate birthing a premature baby at home, fgs and a baby measuring under the 3rd centile and dropping and to refuse any sort of medical support in pursuit of the perfect home birth. I just don’t get it.

Any free birth or demanding midwives come out when there’s a national short staffing. It seems like a recipe for disaster.

I totally get my body my choice but seems like playing with fire In some instances to me-aibu?

Sorry but there is space to be angry at both, both a broken maternity system and a toxic alternative one that spouts informed consent yet shuts down opposition and denies risk.

Absolutely this!

I think we can all recognise the flaws in maternity care:

Lack of continuity of care
Not woman centred
Rigid guidelines and pathways
Inadequate staff levels
Burnt out and busy staff
Horrible hospital environment
Lack of consent-seeking
Lack of information/education
Too few appointments
Obstetric violence
Cascade of interventions
Previous birth trauma that isn't addressed
Covid restrictions on support at scans
Conveyor belt approach
Culture of 'live baby is all that matters'
Gatekeeping of painkillers
Fucking inferno temperature on labour wards
Lack of practical support with newborn
Deep rooted misogyny informing medical care
Judgement about feeding choices

Have I missed anything?

The answer to these problems isn't freebirthing ffs. I think a straightforward home birth is a wonderful option and can be very healing for a woman that has suffered trauma in a previous pregnancy or labour but shouldn't be wantonly encouraged if it's not safe and appropriately supported.

These Facebook groups have such an us vs them mentality which just feeds the absolute goal of homebirthing no matter what. It really is a lack of critical thinking. If a doctor says it's a bad idea you need to have a think about why that is and meaningfully consider the risks, not just assume the doctor is evil and just wants to deprive you of a beautiful natural magical birth experience.

I would free birth before I ever gave birth in a hospital again. That’s because the trauma I suffered at the hands of medical professionals was so profound and terrifying I was too scared for a long time to even go for a scan.
I understand your point, but you also have to understand that hospital birth doesn’t mean things will be fine, and that actually what hospitals do can sometimes be life threatening.
My son suffered a life limiting birth injury and I nearly died due to the total lack of care. My son died at 5 months old because of it.

I love in a fairly 'alternative' area and on my local FB page free birthing is definitely the preferred option.

The fact that ambulance wait times are at six hours here at the moment is not deterring people apparently.

After my last birth was somewhat messy, with haemorrhaging and emergency surgery required, I think it's absolute bloody madness. But you can't convince someone who doesn't want to hear it, and get accused of all sorts when you point this out 🤷🏻‍♀️

These groups are the canary in the coal mine. Don't get angry at the canary. Of course it's a stupid idea to bring an animal in a coal mine - it could die!

But why do women, intelligent human beings who have their babies' interests at heart, do it anyway? What is causing them to make these choices you disagree with?

The first cause of maternal deaths in the olden days was sepsis, not obstetric complications. The improvement in maternal survival rates of late is due to antibiotics, not to making women lie on their backs with their feet up like trussed up chickens.

One of the first causes of maternal death is postpartum suicide. If you know a hospital environment is likely to cause mental health complications, it is a perfectly rational decision to avoid it for your own survival.

I chose a hospital birth for myself so don't fall on me like a ton of bricks but the crux of the argument here is : are women to be trusted to discuss their own health? Is it unreasonable to allow women to talk about what's best for them? How do we coerce women into making the decisions we think are best for them?

As opposed to - whatever is wrong with the system that people feel safer outside of it? And how do we fix that? If coal mines never blew up no one would even think of bringing a canary down there.

If you don't see the misogyny on this I really can't help you.

@Hoping4second

These groups are the canary in the coal mine. Don't get angry at the canary. Of course it's a stupid idea to bring an animal in a coal mine - it could die!

But why do women, intelligent human beings who have their babies' interests at heart, do it anyway? What is causing them to make these choices you disagree with?

The first cause of maternal deaths in the olden days was sepsis, not obstetric complications. The improvement in maternal survival rates of late is due to antibiotics, not to making women lie on their backs with their feet up like trussed up chickens.

One of the first causes of maternal death is postpartum suicide. If you know a hospital environment is likely to cause mental health complications, it is a perfectly rational decision to avoid it for your own survival.

I chose a hospital birth for myself so don't fall on me like a ton of bricks but the crux of the argument here is : are women to be trusted to discuss their own health? Is it unreasonable to allow women to talk about what's best for them? How do we coerce women into making the decisions we think are best for them?

As opposed to - whatever is wrong with the system that people feel safer outside of it? And how do we fix that? If coal mines never blew up no one would even think of bringing a canary down there.

If you don't see the misogyny on this I really can't help you.

I don't think the issue is with the groups existence. Women should absolutely have a safe place to discuss and share thoughts and ideas (hey, isn't that what we are all doing on MN right now?) but there is a very real problem with the culture in some of these groups that there is only one right way to birth a baby.

Women should be encouraged to question, research and consider; not to just ignore any and all medical advice. Especially when the encouragement comes from unqualified people with an agenda. After all, a doula wants to be paid to attend a home birth doesn't she? She doesn't want women to go into hospital to seek the help they may well desperately need to survive.
Group members brandish terms like 'informed consent' and 'evidence based' without actually understanding what they really mean. There seems to be competition about how little pain relief is accessed, how long they managed to leave it before cutting the cord, how bad the pph was before they agreed to transfer etc. It's toxic.

I’d much rather be in the care of specialist professionals who have medical qualifications, years of experience and who believe in evidence-based medicine. Maybe part of the reason some women feel like they’re on a conveyer belt is that the professionals have dealt with the exact situation they’re presenting with many times before. That is a good thing.

So much of this. I am hugely reassured by an air of competent efficiency. I want to be quickly informed of how things are progressing and, in the same breath, have a recommended course of action presented to me.

@Hoping4second

These groups are the canary in the coal mine. Don't get angry at the canary. Of course it's a stupid idea to bring an animal in a coal mine - it could die!

But why do women, intelligent human beings who have their babies' interests at heart, do it anyway? What is causing them to make these choices you disagree with?

The first cause of maternal deaths in the olden days was sepsis, not obstetric complications. The improvement in maternal survival rates of late is due to antibiotics, not to making women lie on their backs with their feet up like trussed up chickens.

One of the first causes of maternal death is postpartum suicide. If you know a hospital environment is likely to cause mental health complications, it is a perfectly rational decision to avoid it for your own survival.

I chose a hospital birth for myself so don't fall on me like a ton of bricks but the crux of the argument here is : are women to be trusted to discuss their own health? Is it unreasonable to allow women to talk about what's best for them? How do we coerce women into making the decisions we think are best for them?

As opposed to - whatever is wrong with the system that people feel safer outside of it? And how do we fix that? If coal mines never blew up no one would even think of bringing a canary down there.

If you don't see the misogyny on this I really can't help you.

👏👏👏👏

@CoalCraft

I’d much rather be in the care of specialist professionals who have medical qualifications, years of experience and who believe in evidence-based medicine. Maybe part of the reason some women feel like they’re on a conveyer belt is that the professionals have dealt with the exact situation they’re presenting with many times before. That is a good thing.

So much of this. I am hugely reassured by an air of competent efficiency. I want to be quickly informed of how things are progressing and, in the same breath, have a recommended course of action presented to me.

And if that is what makes you feel safer: fine. For me the conveyer belt means they are not treating me as a person with my own wants and needs and doing ANY job by rote leaves you wide open to making catastrophic mistakes.

First, doulas get paid the exact same amount for a homebirth or hospital birth. Part of their usefulness lies in keeping you calm through the birth so some might say they're more useful in hospitals.

Second, the prevailing consensus is that babies should be born in a hospital with lots of medical professionals telling you what to do. This is who we are a society. This is the expectation. This is what all antenatal care and your mother in law and your annoying neighbour will be telling you (uninvited) all day long. No one goes on a "UK homebirth" Facebook group to be told yet again that if you're not tied up to a hospital bed your baby will diiiiie. People go there specifically to discuss why and how they can avoid hospital.

...so again, what's the issue with women discussing things between them without oversight and control?

If homebirth is something you find is not in line with what you want, leave the group. I hate vegan food, so I haven't joined any vegan recipe sharing groups. It's that simple. And there are so many non vegan recipes all around in families, restaurants etc etc that I really cannot claim these groups' mere existence is forcing anyone into veganism.

@Hoping4second

First, doulas get paid the exact same amount for a homebirth or hospital birth. Part of their usefulness lies in keeping you calm through the birth so some might say they're more useful in hospitals.

Second, the prevailing consensus is that babies should be born in a hospital with lots of medical professionals telling you what to do. This is who we are a society. This is the expectation. This is what all antenatal care and your mother in law and your annoying neighbour will be telling you (uninvited) all day long. No one goes on a "UK homebirth" Facebook group to be told yet again that if you're not tied up to a hospital bed your baby will diiiiie. People go there specifically to discuss why and how they can avoid hospital.

...so again, what's the issue with women discussing things between them without oversight and control?

If homebirth is something you find is not in line with what you want, leave the group. I hate vegan food, so I haven't joined any vegan recipe sharing groups. It's that simple. And there are so many non vegan recipes all around in families, restaurants etc etc that I really cannot claim these groups' mere existence is forcing anyone into veganism.

Presumably not if they can't attend hospital births? Most hospitals have limited the number of birth partners due to Covid have they not? Is the doula going to get full whack if she can't go?

I think you are wrong that the goal is to avoid giving birth in hospital, it seems the goal is to avoid any and all medicalisation which in many cases includes scans, tests and routine vaccinations in pregnancy. I agree in most cases pregnancy and birth is not a medical event and I totally understand the desire to avoid a hospital environment but a home birth ought to be attended by a qualified midwife. If there is something wrong with the baby or the pregnancy is high risk the birth should take place where it is safest; hospital.

I always think that the posts about how dangerous home births (often conflated with free births) are compared to having 'the attention of doctors and all the medical care you need on tap' are so rosy about the reality of hospital. One of the reasons I wanted a home birth for my second is that my first was essentially a free birth on a maternity triage ward because I only got any care for the final 20 minutes of pushing, as that's when they finally conceded that it was possible that I was in active labour and to examine me (at which point they realised I was near crowning). They told me off for coming in when I arrived as they'd told me to stay at home - if I had it would have been entirely unassisted. And that was despite being told I was high risk and so couldn't use the MLU, pool, etc. I really, really didn't feel that hospital was a place where all the care and expertise I could possibly need was on tap.

the prevailing consensus is that babies should be born in a hospital with lots of medical professionals telling you what to do. This is who we are a society. This is the expectation. This is what all antenatal care and your mother in law and your annoying neighbour will be telling you (uninvited) all day long. No one goes on a "UK homebirth" Facebook group to be told yet again that if you're not tied up to a hospital bed your baby will diiiiie.

From second-hand experience of three NHS trusts in 2021, this is wrong. All three encouraged home births in circumstances they, with their years of experience and qualifications, deemed safe. As it turned out, the one set of midwives who said homebirth wasn't a good idea were right and hospital was the place that particular birth needed to take place to deliver a healthy baby and save his mother. He just would not have been born without intervention.

As for being tied to a hospital bed, that's just ridiculous hyperbole. Yes, if you need an epidural to cope with the pain you will be immobilised, and certainly if the baby is a bad presentation and needs intervention to save its and its mother's life you won't be wandering around, but that's at the far end of a whole spectrum that starts with breathing and includes measures like birthing pools and gas and air.

And don't forget if the worst happens, Paramedics are not trained midwives and as a rule, never want to have to deliver a baby, some may never have done it if they turn up in am emergency. Make sensible decisions.

Well I am going to argue hospital birth poses more risk with some examples. You upset women chat online giving each other advice because you know, they don't want a husband stitch, they don't want to be medically raped with vaginal exams and birth instruments, they don't want to be coerced, they don't want to be disrespected eh? These aren't good enough reasons to shun modern medicine? I will give even better ones. You angry at women not being held accountable for giving advice online?

What about these doctors?
When doctor Laxman had staff hold Laura Gallazi down against her will, cut her vagina and cervix without anasthesia and pulled so hard on her premature baby that she decapitated its head from its torso, leaving its head inside the mother, Laxman got to keep her medical license and was not held crimminaly accountable for assault, battery and medical rape.

When Kimberly Turbin declined an episiotomy, her doctor, Alexi Abbasi performed a female genital mutilation to punish her, slashing her perineum 12 times. Its on camera on youtube and yet he was not criminally punished despite it being illegal. It took two years to even get it recognized civily. By that time he claimed dementia to avoid culpability,

When Rinat Dray refused a ceasarian, she was restrained and cut open against her will because a judge ruled females were nothing but vessels and fetuses mattered more so its okay to brutalize women in surgeries they don't want.

Arteisha Betts, full term baby's head was ripped off by a doctor, shoved back up her vagina, then had a ceasarian performed without anasthesia. Doctor got to keep license and practice medicine.

When Caroline Malatesta wanted a natural birth, she was held down by nurses against her will and another nurse held her crowning baby's headin her vagina for several minutes causing such a severe nerve injury she now lives in chronic pain and can't have sex again. She won a pay out but those nurses are not held criminally responsible for assault and are still happily practicing.

When Delfina Mota was cut open without consent or anesthesia the court ruled what the doctor did was okay again because a fetus mattered more than her. Glossed over the fact it was their faulty CTG equipment giving false readings on the status of the baby.

When Savita Halappanavar went in for treatment for a second trimester miscarriage, she was neglected and mistreated by staff and died a horrible painful death from sepsis. No one was really held accountable for her death, but women were the ones that rallied to get some reproductive rights.

Recently there has been several cases of babies heads being crushed by forceps and women so badly injured by the use of such forceps because the doctor is rushing that they end up with a colostomy bag.

These cases are just the ones that hit the news but any birth trauma forums are full of similar stories,

But hey you want to be angry at women giving advice to each other online so they can reclaim some semblance of autonomy? You mad they want to shun the medicine that routinely maims them and their babies? You mad they would rather risk an adverse medical event on their own terms rather than put up with hospital abuse? These arent rare occurences.

Them giving advice to each other is the thing that's dangerous and gets you mad and not this other crap? Your priorities need rethinking.

The goal of a live baby and mother is piss poor care and unacceptable in a first world country and is bare minimum. We not even getting live mothers, we have an epidemic of maternal suicide on our hands.

Its not women's problem if the NHS want to use misygony and non evidence based practice to mitigate risk.

Its not a contradiction, I am merely commenting on the variety of women that choose to ignore medical advice etc.

So I really do not understand OP's and others misplaced anger at these forums. It shouldn't even be a priority. Most maternal deaths and stillbirths occur in hospital regardless.

I mean this isn't even including the fact maternity care is not evidence based.
This isn't even counting poorer nations where women in countries like India have chosen to return to freebirthing in poor conditions because doctors and midwives and in hospitals literally back hand them in the jaw for being too loud during childbirth and even treat them like dogs. Just a link to one of many articles on the matter: indianexpress.com/article/india/women-unhappy-with-institutional-care-opt-for-home-births-in-city-4464426/

You get the picture. Your perception of what is dangerous seems to be the issue here. You are aware of the abuse women face. Why be angry they shun such abusive medicine? I too would rather birth on my own terms and risk poor outcomes than be abused in hospital.

@Hoping4second

First, doulas get paid the exact same amount for a homebirth or hospital birth. Part of their usefulness lies in keeping you calm through the birth so some might say they're more useful in hospitals.

Second, the prevailing consensus is that babies should be born in a hospital with lots of medical professionals telling you what to do. This is who we are a society. This is the expectation. This is what all antenatal care and your mother in law and your annoying neighbour will be telling you (uninvited) all day long. No one goes on a "UK homebirth" Facebook group to be told yet again that if you're not tied up to a hospital bed your baby will diiiiie. People go there specifically to discuss why and how they can avoid hospital.

...so again, what's the issue with women discussing things between them without oversight and control?

If homebirth is something you find is not in line with what you want, leave the group. I hate vegan food, so I haven't joined any vegan recipe sharing groups. It's that simple. And there are so many non vegan recipes all around in families, restaurants etc etc that I really cannot claim these groups' mere existence is forcing anyone into veganism.

It’s getting a bit silly now, the routinely and one can only assume purposefully missing the point. No one really has voiced an anti homebirth opinion, in fact the opposite, we joined those groups specifically because we wanted a home birth. That’s not anti homebirth. But I refuse to be a sycophant to an over zealous doula who thinks her opinion is the only opinion and thus sacrosanct. I’ve and as it transpires many others joined the group looking for tips on homebirth, maybe on advocacy too and have been appalled by the dangerous advice given by people masquerading as having more experience than midwives and fetal med, the blatant encouragement of potentially deadly choices and fundamentally the downplaying or obscuring of risks.

And before anyone jumps on me that I’m bitter or jealous because I didn’t get a home birth, not true. The service was suspended and I didnt want to chance calling and no one coming. I tend to labour quickly. My MLU birth was pleasant. I had a doula who actually was an utter waste of space but I felt listened to and heard by the midwife, that too was very healing post delivery suite birth.

Home birthing wasnt on my radar tbh but my birth in the hospital was traumatic not due to the medical staff they were great. She was a big baby 9.5 came out back to front with her arm scrunched up.
I honesly beleive if it was 100 years ago me and her wouldnt have survived it.
I havent really had to use the nhs much in my life but for that im so grateful for them

@Sesnania14 Tragic as those stories are, from a statistical point of view this is not a good strategy for rational decision making. When making informed choices about maternity care and any medical treatment, the overall statistics are very important- these cases are not typical (in a western healthcare setting like the NHS) and shouldn’t be interpreted as such. Some women have negative experiences; but this isn’t the norm & part of making rational choices is reducing you own risk, through informed decision making. That involves mass studies & statistics, not looking at a few very extreme examples out of millions. I think this is the op’s point- if you encourage women to make decisions in this way it is essentially spreading misinformation & it puts people at risk. x

@sjxoxo

Actually it is norm. Western countries have up to 30% of women suffering birth trauma, most of which is caused by obscetric violence. These stories are just the ones that made it to the public . Its more the fact in the face of such horrendous violence these doctors weren't held accountable. I mean for example Kimberly Turbin's experience isn't rare at all. Women are routinly given episiotomies without permission.

Women may choose to take on that risk from that info though. Still though doctors are the ones wilfully lying where the ones on the internet are just misinformed.

When Savita Halappanavar went in for treatment for a second trimester miscarriage, she was neglected and mistreated by staff and died a horrible painful death from sepsis. No one was really held accountable for her death, but women were the ones that rallied to get some reproductive rights.

I think you know you’ve misrepresented this story. The doctors in that hospital (in Galway btw, not the U.K.) where constrained by poor legislation which prevented them from preforming an abortion, leading to her developing sepsis.

She was failed by the provision of the 8th Amendment of the Irish Constitution, not by NHS culture.

No I did not misrepresent Savita story. The 8th amend, had provisions for the life of the mother. White women in that same hospital had undergone D &C. She was literally neglected because she was Hindu and doctors chose to put fetus above her. They knew she has signs if infection and did not commence treat,and until it was too late. But again assuming you are right, more reason for women to stay away and suss out their own care online if even the law is againsg them.

there is space to be angry at both, both a broken maternity system and a toxic alternative one that spouts informed consent yet shuts down opposition and denies risk.

I think this is a key point, OP. It's a shame if women end up on two sides, shouting at each other about which way is worse. We all want the same thing - safe and positive births. Can't we all unite to advocate for the shared goal?

[quote Sesnania14]@sjxoxo

Actually it is norm. Western countries have up to 30% of women suffering birth trauma, most of which is caused by obscetric violence. These stories are just the ones that made it to the public . Its more the fact in the face of such horrendous violence these doctors weren't held accountable. I mean for example Kimberly Turbin's experience isn't rare at all. Women are routinly given episiotomies without permission.

Women may choose to take on that risk from that info though. Still though doctors are the ones wilfully lying where the ones on the internet are just misinformed.[/quote]
But 30% isn’t the norm is it, granted it should be none, but 30% isn’t the majority and the cases you referenced are absolutely hideous and vile and the doctors should face criminal prosecution and it’s a travesty that they didn’t, only one of your cited examples occurred in the UK. Don’t get me wrong there are adverse outcomes in hospitals and women do leave traumatised but how many adverse outcomes are there for women going against medical advice and how traumatised are those women? We’ve heard 3 examples on this thread alone.

But what you did was exactly my point, obscure the risk of say iugr or prematurity or pre e from ignoring medical advice and just say ‘well look at all of these bad things that happen in hospital’

@Brighteyedtriangle

Home birthing wasnt on my radar tbh but my birth in the hospital was traumatic not due to the medical staff they were great. She was a big baby 9.5 came out back to front with her arm scrunched up. I honesly beleive if it was 100 years ago me and her wouldnt have survived it. I havent really had to use the nhs much in my life but for that im so grateful for them

I think the same of my birth story. A different time, or perhaps in a different country both me and my son would be dead. I had a healthy, uncomplicated pregnancy. You never, ever know whats going to happen which is why 'freebirthing' is so terrifying.

Home birth is fine!

@Sesnania14 I gave birth in the hospital where the horrific case you mentioned happened. The maternity care could not have been better. Everyone I know who has given birth there says the same. But doctors are human too and can make the wrong call. This was a one off horrible case, which the media have had a field day with, and doesn't represent what the care is normally like.
That doctor no longer works there and is unlikely to ever work in the Uk again.
Medical staff are held to account a hell of a lot more than random people in Facebook groups. For a start you need to pass your qualifications, then placements, then if you make mistakes in your work you can be struck off, taken to court, you name it. There's absolutely no come back for someone giving out advice on Facebook.

I was tied yo my hospital bed. "continuous monitoring or else the baby will diiiie". I was told prior to the birth, repeatedly and by different people, that the hospital had wireless monitors, but somehow on the day there were none to be found. So I could not move freely through any of the labour. It is not a hyperbole, it happens routinely. No one would even think of tying up dogs or horses when they give birth, and animal cruelty is a criminal offence, but it's good enough for human women.

As for doulas not being allowed in hospitals due to Covid (although they could until recently wander around unmasked in pubs and nightclubs and packed tube trains like everyone else) - it's part of the problem. A rational person who wants the best for their child but also would prefer to avoid hospital for many perfectly sensible reasons, will try to compromise - homebirth with midwives rather than hospital, mlu rather than labour ward, labour ward but with a calm and experienced birth partner, etc. Take those options away one by one and the net result is that you can either freebirth or labour alone in a very stressful environment + subject yourself to a medically unnecessary vaginal examination to get allowed your partner for the last stages. Both options are less than ideal, surely we can agree on that much? And when the entire world keeps telling you you must choose the latter (or else the baby will diiiie) you can't even discuss the former on a Facebook group?

Come on, people. We're fighting each other when we should all be fighting for better standards of maternity care across the board - fully staffed homebirth midwifery teams, insurance costs that are not prohibitive for independent midwives, mlus that do not close due to staff pressure, and labour wards that respect women's basic human rights throughout birth. It's really not that much of an ask imho.