AIBU- home birth social media support groups are f’ing dangeorus **Content warning - title edited by MNHQ**

[Namechangetimes100]

I’m in a few Fb home birth groups as I was planning to have one til the service got suspended, had an MLU birth instead and was absolutely fine! I’ve not left the group yet (probs should) but some of the advice given is fucking dangerous as hell.

The advice is free birth left right and centre. Birth at home for a pre term (35 week plus) baby, the woman did and the baby needed resus this was met with almost rapturous applause and more recently refuse induction or action for iugr. I mean ffs this advice can kill as well as the doctors = evil mentality.

I do totally believe and support informed consent and I do think that choice isn’t often presented to women in obstetrics and sometimes induction is made to seem like the only choice when it isn’t. I was coerced into induction with a ‘constitutionally small’ baby based on old guidelines so I’m sympathetic to a point to some of these opinions. But to even contemplate birthing a premature baby at home, fgs and a baby measuring under the 3rd centile and dropping and to refuse any sort of medical support in pursuit of the perfect home birth. I just don’t get it.

Any free birth or demanding midwives come out when there’s a national short staffing. It seems like a recipe for disaster.

I totally get my body my choice but seems like playing with fire In some instances to me-aibu?

@HerculesMulligann Totally agree. I also don't really get all these complaints about care being "impersonal" and being on a conveyor belt. Well, yes, because you're not the only woman giving birth! Friends and family are the people to go to for moral support, the staff are there to take care of the practicalities.
Birth is a means to an end, but it's been elevated to some kind of magical experience.

I was tied yo my hospital bed.

In what way?

Western countries have up to 30% of women suffering birth trauma, most of which is caused by obscetric violence

Wow, I certainly didn’t realise the statistics were so bad! Do you have a source for them, please?

Having a monitor is not the same thing as being tied to a bed. It’s just not. Yes, it restricted your movements in that if you try to walk around with it on, the wires get in the way and the monitor will move and likely stop doing it’s job effectively. But you can physically move or get up with a monitor on, you’re not tied to the bed. This kind of exaggeration is unhelpful.
They don’t tie you to the bed if you decide to have an epidural either. It’s just likely your legs won’t work very well because they’re anesthetized. The trade off for that is that the pain stops!

I was "tied to the bed" by a monitor because I had PROM and we were both at risk of sepsis. How very dare they. I would much rather my baby got into silent distress while I did yoga poses out in the corridor.

I can see both sides of this..Ive had two home births, both well supported by midwives and have a qualification in evidence based medicine so am well aware that stats for home birth are actually great for the right cohort and that many obstetric practices are guideline based rather than evidence based and women are not always presented with all the options by their care givers. Many practitioners (doctors and midwives) come from a place of avoiding all 'risk' without discussing the risks of interventions on offer. Meaning risk as a statistical likelihood as it should probably be discussed. These groups offer an alternative perspective and opportunity for women to do their own research to consider those risks. However I also agree I find some posts in the groups quite alarming as they can go to the other extreme, I think there are probably a number of people who feel that way but are afraid to put their heads above the parapet with such strong rhetoric as seen above, I know friends also in same groups are afraid to comment and go against the grain. In one case I saw a woman encouraged to go against guidance for a post 42 weeks homebirth that resulted in a still birth at home yet the people encouraging her said 'at least it was on her terms'. It was just heartbreaking. And posts encouraging freebirth/ call an ambulance, when ambulance waiting times can be hours in current crisis rarely highlight the risks involved. It feels like luck there haven't been more adverse outcomes. Of course informed decision making is the most important thing but I'm not sure either 'side' has got it quite right. There needs to be a better way for collaborative informed decision making.

I was also monitored constantly and on the bed. Looking back I wish I’d asked to move. Surprise surprise labour didn’t happen naturally and anxiety went up.

I ended up strapped to monitors and stuck in a cubicle on antenatal for a day and didn't dilate another cm in that state. While I wouldn't have freebirthed next time when my waters went instead of coming in straight away like I was supposed to I waited until morning when my contractions were less than 5 minutes apart as I didn't want to get stuck on antenatal again.

Exactly the point @Cuppacharplease, spot on!

YANBU! I almost got sucked into this when pregnant with DC1. Luckily I was outside the required radius so had to have a hospital birth. It is highly, highly likely DD would have died otherwise. I was taking no chances with DC2, that birth would have gone beautifully at home but we have modern medicine for a reason so I wasn't taking any risks. I agree there has been an over medicalisation of birth but there's also been a massive reduction in infant mortality so to shun hospitals/doctors completely is idiotic. My midwife was utterly negligent the first time round and lied to the doctors. Instead of working together there was a real us-vs-them mentality. Dangerous stuff.

@HardbackWriter

I always think that the posts about how dangerous home births (often conflated with free births) are compared to having 'the attention of doctors and all the medical care you need on tap' are so rosy about the reality of hospital. One of the reasons I wanted a home birth for my second is that my first was essentially a free birth on a maternity triage ward because I only got any care for the final 20 minutes of pushing, as that's when they finally conceded that it was possible that I was in active labour and to examine me (at which point they realised I was near crowning). They told me off for coming in when I arrived as they'd told me to stay at home - if I had it would have been entirely unassisted. And that was despite being told I was high risk and so couldn't use the MLU, pool, etc. I really, really didn't feel that hospital was a place where all the care and expertise I could possibly need was on tap.

Precisely, my ‘all the medics on tap’ hospital birth consisted of putting an epidural I did not want in, then leaving me alone for hours unable to reach the buzzer to call anyone, then when my baby started to be born and I was SCREAMING for help they came running and he had already been without oxygen for 20 mins, and was lying in a pool of my own blood.

That’s the amazing hospital care I got. If I’d been at home, I would have been able to move and may have been able to save my son or call for help.

@Diggersaursarethebest

Having a monitor is not the same thing as being tied to a bed. It’s just not. Yes, it restricted your movements in that if you try to walk around with it on, the wires get in the way and the monitor will move and likely stop doing it’s job effectively. But you can physically move or get up with a monitor on, you’re not tied to the bed. This kind of exaggeration is unhelpful. They don’t tie you to the bed if you decide to have an epidural either. It’s just likely your legs won’t work very well because they’re anesthetized. The trade off for that is that the pain stops!

Not always it doesn’t. And when they walk away and leave you unable to move and unable to call for help… then the trade off is a brain damaged baby who dies 5 months later.

I love the UK homebirth group I am. Very supportive and informative. I have safety had 4 babies at home and would really take something very serious for me to be convinced to go to hospital. Had my last baby during covid times and the NHS "cancelled" homebirths. Was lucky to find a lovely private midwife through the group so I could stay at home. No way would I have had a baby in hospital during a pandemic without my husband and kids. Much safer at home.

I quite wanted a home birth with Ds. Exh was dead against it and I did listen to him. Wouldn’t have been able to anyway as Ds was induced early due to measuring small size (they thought placenta may have given up but in fact he wasn’t as small as they thought). Anyway birth itself was fine, but I was glad I didn’t take the risk.

I agree women should always be free to speak to each other though.

@Cosmois

I love the UK homebirth group I am. Very supportive and informative. I have safety had 4 babies at home and would really take something very serious for me to be convinced to go to hospital. Had my last baby during covid times and the NHS "cancelled" homebirths. Was lucky to find a lovely private midwife through the group so I could stay at home. No way would I have had a baby in hospital during a pandemic without my husband and kids. Much safer at home.

Home birth is not the same as free birth. I think you've missed the point.

Can’t say I saw anything like this when I was planning my homebirths.

However the issue isn’t the bonkers people it’s lack of funding for more home births that’s driving these women to go full speed to craziness or even because of prior bad experience. If we had more midwifes inside the hospitals if we had more midwifes for home births those people would then be a tiny tiny minority.

My first birth after care ruined my experience of giving birth even in the midwife led unit. My homebirth was brilliant.

My third a planned homebirth that didn’t happen due to midwife on the phone not believing me and then homebirth midwifes being busy when someone finally listened could of easily become a unattended/paramedic homebirth because I was not stepping foot in a hospital without the 100% promise of a 2-4hour discharge straight from delivery room and not being put on ward unless something actually went wrong. I was more than happy to take my chances with paramedics if it meant not being stuck on ward.

My homebirth midwife actually lodged a complaint about my calls being deemed as not a women in labour as in her words it wasn’t for them to decide all homebirth calls should be put though to the home birth team.

@Sesnania14

Well I am going to argue hospital birth poses more risk with some examples. You upset women chat online giving each other advice because you know, they don't want a husband stitch, they don't want to be medically raped with vaginal exams and birth instruments, they don't want to be coerced, they don't want to be disrespected eh? These aren't good enough reasons to shun modern medicine? I will give even better ones. You angry at women not being held accountable for giving advice online?

What about these doctors?
When doctor Laxman had staff hold Laura Gallazi down against her will, cut her vagina and cervix without anasthesia and pulled so hard on her premature baby that she decapitated its head from its torso, leaving its head inside the mother, Laxman got to keep her medical license and was not held crimminaly accountable for assault, battery and medical rape.

When Kimberly Turbin declined an episiotomy, her doctor, Alexi Abbasi performed a female genital mutilation to punish her, slashing her perineum 12 times. Its on camera on youtube and yet he was not criminally punished despite it being illegal. It took two years to even get it recognized civily. By that time he claimed dementia to avoid culpability,

When Rinat Dray refused a ceasarian, she was restrained and cut open against her will because a judge ruled females were nothing but vessels and fetuses mattered more so its okay to brutalize women in surgeries they don't want.

Arteisha Betts, full term baby's head was ripped off by a doctor, shoved back up her vagina, then had a ceasarian performed without anasthesia. Doctor got to keep license and practice medicine.

When Caroline Malatesta wanted a natural birth, she was held down by nurses against her will and another nurse held her crowning baby's headin her vagina for several minutes causing such a severe nerve injury she now lives in chronic pain and can't have sex again. She won a pay out but those nurses are not held criminally responsible for assault and are still happily practicing.

When Delfina Mota was cut open without consent or anesthesia the court ruled what the doctor did was okay again because a fetus mattered more than her. Glossed over the fact it was their faulty CTG equipment giving false readings on the status of the baby.

When Savita Halappanavar went in for treatment for a second trimester miscarriage, she was neglected and mistreated by staff and died a horrible painful death from sepsis. No one was really held accountable for her death, but women were the ones that rallied to get some reproductive rights.

Recently there has been several cases of babies heads being crushed by forceps and women so badly injured by the use of such forceps because the doctor is rushing that they end up with a colostomy bag.

These cases are just the ones that hit the news but any birth trauma forums are full of similar stories,

But hey you want to be angry at women giving advice to each other online so they can reclaim some semblance of autonomy? You mad they want to shun the medicine that routinely maims them and their babies? You mad they would rather risk an adverse medical event on their own terms rather than put up with hospital abuse? These arent rare occurences.

Them giving advice to each other is the thing that's dangerous and gets you mad and not this other crap? Your priorities need rethinking.

The goal of a live baby and mother is piss poor care and unacceptable in a first world country and is bare minimum. We not even getting live mothers, we have an epidemic of maternal suicide on our hands.

Its not women's problem if the NHS want to use misygony and non evidence based practice to mitigate risk.

Its not a contradiction, I am merely commenting on the variety of women that choose to ignore medical advice etc.

So I really do not understand OP's and others misplaced anger at these forums. It shouldn't even be a priority. Most maternal deaths and stillbirths occur in hospital regardless.

I mean this isn't even including the fact maternity care is not evidence based.
This isn't even counting poorer nations where women in countries like India have chosen to return to freebirthing in poor conditions because doctors and midwives and in hospitals literally back hand them in the jaw for being too loud during childbirth and even treat them like dogs. Just a link to one of many articles on the matter: indianexpress.com/article/india/women-unhappy-with-institutional-care-opt-for-home-births-in-city-4464426/

You get the picture. Your perception of what is dangerous seems to be the issue here. You are aware of the abuse women face. Why be angry they shun such abusive medicine? I too would rather birth on my own terms and risk poor outcomes than be abused in hospital.

This post literally proves the OPs point. Lots of emotive language about rape, lots of horror stories to prove how evil doctors are.

Except…. all bar one are not in this country and maternity care and the law in terms of women’s rights in labour is vastly different in the US and Ireland.

I’m going to now add a trigger warning for stillbirth - because unlike you, I don’t revel in shocking people with half stories. But in fairness to Dr Laxman and many other doctors you have slandered, it’s only right that the full facts are also presented. Laura Galazzi’s story was utterly heartbreaking. Sadly the baby had already died before, he was very premature, breech and had a cord prolapse. Dr Laxman was not sanctioned because her actions were not wrong. Of course it is awful for Laura to know her baby’s body was so brutally damaged in the process. Sadly however, when a baby has died (especially at such an early gestation) their bodies are very friable. Even if the doctor had gone straight for a caesarean, the outcome would have been the same -as breech babies are delivered using the same manoeuvres through the abdomen.

So you post your list of a handful of awful cases, noteworthy because they are so unusual. Shall I post the enormous list of cases where women and babies have come to harm because they followed the advice of people like you? Because it’s a heck of a lot more than 5 and it’s in the UK.

@Comedycook

I've actually never seen the appeal of a home birth...what's so great about being at home? I wouldn't be more relaxed...I'd be an anxious mess in case anything went wrong!

Me too, but then it isn’t the right place for me. I feel safe & cared for in hospital, & love the tradition of chatting to women on the ward, having the ‘going home’ car seat photo, showing my baby off to the midwives etc. Home would feel so quiet and lonely and a bit of a non-event!

Depends on the groups You're in a d how they're admin'd and how much weight is given to evidence based research. The groups I've been on, for both HBAC and breastfeeding, were absolutely militant about evidence based research, and admins jumped right on anything that wasn't supported by legitimate evidence based guidelines and peer reviewed research. And when I had meconium in my waters, transferred in and ended up having a repeat c section, my birth was celebrated by the admin of the group as much as any of the "successful" home births, just as I celebrated it, because in contrast to my first failed induction and ultimate section I had felt fully informed about the risks of my various choices and my rights to make them, felt in control as far as one can be, and was at peace with hoe my birth had ended up because of that. None of which would have been true if j hadn't been part of that group.

God knows Facebook is packed with "support groups" manned by know nothing idiots who wouldn't know an evidence-based NICE guideline from a plate of mince. Unfortunately a lot of medical staff either don't know NICE guidance either, or disregard it when they want to bully a woman into making a birth choice they're more comfortable with, or even give the impression there is no choice to be made at all or that the person who gets to make that choice is the HCP. This is what leads women, usually traumatised by such bullying in previous births, "do their own research". The quality of said research may vary wildly unfortunately as few people in the modern world of Google and YouTube have any idea what constitutes good quality sources of information or even how to identify the source of the information they consume.

So I'd say the problem is far less home birth groups and far more: the medical profession needing a massive overhaul of its understanding and application of informed consent with regard to maternity care; and a desperate desperate need for information skills and critical thinking to be taught in schools as discrete subjects rather than something hopefully picked up along the way. We have never had better access to good information, and rarely have we as a society been more ill-informed and credulous. It's a horrible paradox and it needs sorting.

I remember a woman in my NCT group saying, sheep give birth without help so why can't we? I just left that one as didn't even know where to start. Plus she looked terrified so I wondered if she was trying to convince herself not me.

Haha. Clearly that person isn't a farmer! Sheep often need help to give birth and often die following it. Probably a 1% maternal death rate and higher for lambs. Definitely wouldn't want to be a sheep giving birth.

Good food. Lots and lots of rest (this was said to help breast feeding. My mother would not even go into the room where favourite cat was feeding the kittens - she said that she needed peace. ) Babies were taken to a night nursery, staffed by trained midwives, so that mothers could sleep. Dim lights only in wards. Five days 'rest and recuperation' in maternity home were seen as totally standard.

I had this a few years ago when I had my babies in Europe.

YANBU

It wasn’t a home birthing group but a ‘crunchy’ group when I was pregnant with DS. One woman’s story really stayed with me and I hope the people giving her advice were fucking ashamed after it all.

Pregnant lady was high risk, I can’t remember the exact details what it was to do with her pelvis and the way it was tilted maybe, and she was strongly advised to have a ELCS by the NHS. She listed reason but essentially a vaginal birth was so risky it could pose serious problems for both her and her baby because of her pelvis and it was highly likely the baby would get stuck . She was disappointed as she had dreams of a home birth. Home birth loons on the group posted hundreds of messages and how she should be able to birth however she likes, Trust in nature, I had an such-and-such pelvis and had a wonderful home birth etc. I posted saying given the high risk status I would have the ELCS, it’s so unfortunate but it does sound risky. Got absolutely torn a new one by the home birth loons.

She listened to the loons and had a home birth and posted afterwards. She was in agony and the baby did in fact get stuck - and she was piled into an ambulance with a baby stuck in her birth canal. The baby had a bit of brain damage and whilst he survived he was in SCBU, and would have life long difficulties due to how he came into the world. The poor woman couldn’t even go into her living room because that’s where she laboured and she was so traumatised by it all that looking at her living room gave her panic attacks. She posted over the next few months and it only all got worse.

The same pricks encouraging her to have a risky birth were all “Oh such a shame sadly that happens with home births sometimes”

@Draineddraineddrained

Depends on the groups You're in a d how they're admin'd and how much weight is given to evidence based research. The groups I've been on, for both HBAC and breastfeeding, were absolutely militant about evidence based research, and admins jumped right on anything that wasn't supported by legitimate evidence based guidelines and peer reviewed research. And when I had meconium in my waters, transferred in and ended up having a repeat c section, my birth was celebrated by the admin of the group as much as any of the "successful" home births, just as I celebrated it, because in contrast to my first failed induction and ultimate section I had felt fully informed about the risks of my various choices and my rights to make them, felt in control as far as one can be, and was at peace with hoe my birth had ended up because of that. None of which would have been true if j hadn't been part of that group.

God knows Facebook is packed with "support groups" manned by know nothing idiots who wouldn't know an evidence-based NICE guideline from a plate of mince. Unfortunately a lot of medical staff either don't know NICE guidance either, or disregard it when they want to bully a woman into making a birth choice they're more comfortable with, or even give the impression there is no choice to be made at all or that the person who gets to make that choice is the HCP. This is what leads women, usually traumatised by such bullying in previous births, "do their own research". The quality of said research may vary wildly unfortunately as few people in the modern world of Google and YouTube have any idea what constitutes good quality sources of information or even how to identify the source of the information they consume.

So I'd say the problem is far less home birth groups and far more: the medical profession needing a massive overhaul of its understanding and application of informed consent with regard to maternity care; and a desperate desperate need for information skills and critical thinking to be taught in schools as discrete subjects rather than something hopefully picked up along the way. We have never had better access to good information, and rarely have we as a society been more ill-informed and credulous. It's a horrible paradox and it needs sorting.

Yes this 100%

@Changechangychange

Yep. An ex friend decided to free birth, from listening to stuff like this about how she was “a goddess” and her body would instinctively know what to do etc. Went 6 weeks overdue. Baby clearly died at some point, though she insisted he was still kicking. Eventually became septic, and delivered a black rotten baby (I’m also friends with her sister, who was absolutely traumatised by seeing his body). Ended up having an emergency hysterectomy, almost died. All the fault of the doctors, of course, nothing to do with her refusing all obstetric care.

😮 😮 😮

Is this for real??????

Not always it doesn’t. And when they walk away and leave you unable to move and unable to call for help… then the trade off is a brain damaged baby who dies 5 months later.
@TheOriginalEmu
Did this happen to you? If that’s the case I’m so sorry that you went through this. It sounds like totally inadequate care by the midwives or doctors in this case. I hope you complained. They should have put the emergency alarm within reach before leaving a women in labour with an epidural in place alone in a room. And my understanding is that they should be watching the baby’s heart rate via the monitor too.