AIBU- home birth social media support groups are f’ing dangeorus **Content warning - title edited by MNHQ**

[Namechangetimes100]

I’m in a few Fb home birth groups as I was planning to have one til the service got suspended, had an MLU birth instead and was absolutely fine! I’ve not left the group yet (probs should) but some of the advice given is fucking dangerous as hell.

The advice is free birth left right and centre. Birth at home for a pre term (35 week plus) baby, the woman did and the baby needed resus this was met with almost rapturous applause and more recently refuse induction or action for iugr. I mean ffs this advice can kill as well as the doctors = evil mentality.

I do totally believe and support informed consent and I do think that choice isn’t often presented to women in obstetrics and sometimes induction is made to seem like the only choice when it isn’t. I was coerced into induction with a ‘constitutionally small’ baby based on old guidelines so I’m sympathetic to a point to some of these opinions. But to even contemplate birthing a premature baby at home, fgs and a baby measuring under the 3rd centile and dropping and to refuse any sort of medical support in pursuit of the perfect home birth. I just don’t get it.

Any free birth or demanding midwives come out when there’s a national short staffing. It seems like a recipe for disaster.

I totally get my body my choice but seems like playing with fire In some instances to me-aibu?

I am in an area with an absolutely fantastic dedicated home birth team led by an amazing midwife who's opinion I trust implicitly. She is extremely supportive of a women's wish to home birth, but also very good at encouraging medical tests/screening and having those results to ensure her patients are as informed about their choices as possible. If she told me there was significant risk to my baby, or myself, in giving birth at home I wouldn't hesitate to take her advice and give birth in a hospital.

It's just so sad that this level of care isn't available everywhere, then no one would feel so untrusting of the health service and more trusting of strangers on the internet with little to no qualifications.

I can only talk about my own experience. My asd traits led me to be very black and white with the hypnobirth philosophy, so in my experience I was "easy prey" although that may not apply to others.

I found the narrative pushed by my NCT course to be terrifying. I already had complications which were likely to require intervention of some sort, as were several others in the group. And yet the group leader pushed a frankly dangerous agenda which encouraged us to question and challenge any intervention suggested by medical professionals. At our meet up once the babies arrived when I said I’d been induced her response was “oh never mind” as if I should have been upset by this. I pointed out to her that I’d met with the consultant and discussed my options (at 38 weeks) which were CS, induction or wait and see although they didn’t recommend that I went over 40 due to baby having a head like a basketball. I chose induction and found it to generally be a positive experience. If I’d done what she suggested then it would be highly likely my daughter would have suffered shoulder dystocia and the associated complications. The way I see it, I don’t challenge my dentist, or the orthopaedic doctor who fixed my broken elbow because they’ve trained for a long time and know a hell of a lot more about it than I do, who is doing this for the first time (in the case of birth and broken bones) so why would I be so arrogant as to assume I know better. Don’t get me wrong, I asked a lot of questions and clarified a lot of things and ultimately made my own decision but it was based on listening to what the professionals had to say based on their expertise and years of training.

I agree it’s a consequence of NHS care being underfunded and therefore rushed and impersonal. I know so many women with really serious trauma from births who are repeatedly told ‘as long as the baby is ok that’s the main thing’

No it’s not the main thing. Women matter too. Sometimes they feel they have to back themselves into very extreme positions to protect themselves

I was on an Australian breastfeeding group for a while and there was a subset of prolific posters who went down the free birth path. It seemed very competitive to me.

The whole site was a bit nuts - formula was the devil’s work and if a poster described, for example, a FTT baby who was 6 weeks and hadn’t regained birth weight supply issues were never ever the problem and all medical advice about top ups were to be ignored.

The births had a particular pattern - most women had 3-4 children and the first birth would be a vaginal delivery but with some kind of intervention, such as pin relief or an episiotomy. The subsequent birth would be a home birth with an experienced home birth midwife followed by a free birth. There would then be posts about “born into my hands at home” and the like and pictures of the first breastfeed. It did feel like some posters were motivated by the cheerleading of others and the ability to record a “good” birth story.

I remember one woman in particular who was having her 4th boy, in a blow up pool in the garden. She had previously had straight forward births but with this one she was in agony, to the point when she wanted to drown herself in the pool at one point. She did transfer for pain relief but only needed gas and air but there was radio silence when she posted her “story”. I don’t think those groups are as interested in the outcome (the baby) as they are in the process

I was thrown out of a homebirth group on facebook after my 4th baby was born by c-section. Very upsetting at the time although I find it mildly amusing now. My eldest was born at home and we live less than 10 minutes from the hospital but I had prolonged rupture of membranes with my others and my youngest 2 were early as well so the rest were hospital births.

Some of the people on those groups promote really dangerous advice. I have to admit that I found it really difficult to trust the registrars/junior drs at the antenatal clinic when I walked in with dc2 and they said "2nd baby then?" when it had how many pregnancies/births I'd had in big black letters on the front page of my notes. I got really excellent, personal care from the community midwives and the fetal medicine consultant. And most of the midwives at the hospital were really lovely and kind too, as was the registrar who delivered dc5. A lot of the time I felt as if I was on a conveyor belt though and I got the impression at times that they wanted me to give birth and get out as quickly as possible so they could bring in the next woman.

I have to agree with a previous poster who said about the women centered care that was around in the past. I often watch call the midwife and it's so lovely when some of the nuns have delivered multiple generations of babies and they really know the women they look after. Sadly I don't think my younger 2 would have survived in that era. I wish there was a way of replicating the kind of care they had in the 50's and 60's and combining it with the life saving technology we have now.

Breastfeeding support is also awful in those kind of groups. I had a failure to thrive baby and got some shocking advice and was made to feel like a failure for giving high calorie prescription formula. I got so many "cows milk is for baby cows" and "aww is he a calf then?" followed by a tinkly laugh when I said that I thought it would be best to supplement breastfeeding with the formula that had been prescribed by the paediatrician. I had some really good support from some professionals, especially the nicu staff with dc5.

When did people become so obsessed with "natural birth experiences" and breastfeeding? Birthing is just a means to an end. Same with breastfeeding. A healthy thriving baby is what matters.

I had a c-section and combi-fed from the beginning, and don't have an ounce of guilt about it. Didn't even know some people feel guilty until I read the forums.

@Franca123

I remember a woman in my NCT group saying, sheep give birth without help so why can't we? I just left that one as didn't even know where to start. Plus she looked terrified so I wondered if she was trying to convince herself not me.

Watching Clarkson’s farm would set her right on that.

Sheep and cows need help. Very hard work and stressful for the farmers.

You literally admit your own answer in your OP.

But clarify women are routinely abused. its not a minority. They are frequently victims of various forms of obstetric violence. In fact people in homebirthing and freebirthing groups are also doctors are not held accountable when they assault women and their babies (see the Laura Galazzi case). Some women would rather risk freebirthing and all that comes with it.

Women are grown adults and may make their own choices. Women have bodily autonomy. Birth rights are actually very much enshrined in UK law for example (S v St George NHS trust) where a woman may freebirth to the point of death for her and her baby. Birth is an acr of sovereign and women can make what society 'deems' a bad choice. Some women would rather die or risk a stillbirth than be abused and medically raped in a hospital.

You said yourself you were coerced into an induction and that obscetricians lie by omission by not presenting options. I don't think its dangerous at all. Women are not stupid. Also probably address that misygony. Women have no ability to prevent stillbirth or guarantee pregnancy outcomes by their location. Where I am we had 6 babies die in the space of a year at a hospital during labour. These women were surrounded by doctors and had CTG monitors on them. Doesn't matter where you are, home or hospital,. medical professional or no.

This might also be hard for you to contemplate. Some women believe nature should take its course. Legally speaking once the baby is out they would need to commence infant ressuss, but if they wanted to risk that outcome with a premature baby that is their choice.

Im not sure why you are confused, upset or shocked about it? It seems misplaced. Perhaps you should be more angry at the maternity system that has driven women to take these risks.

The way I see it, I don’t challenge my dentist, or the orthopaedic doctor who fixed my broken elbow because they’ve trained for a long time and know a hell of a lot more about it than I do, who is doing this for the first time (in the case of birth and broken bones) so why would I be so arrogant as to assume I know better. Don’t get me wrong, I asked a lot of questions and clarified a lot of things and ultimately made my own decision but it was based on listening to what the professionals had to say based on their expertise and years of training.

I agree entirely. I planned a home birth and then the midwife went from supporting/encouraging it to advising against (because of covid, not anything specific to me) and so that was the end of that for me - I didn't consider for half a second proceeding once it wasn't medically advised.

But I would note here how different the MN narrative is if you want a homebirth vs if you want an elective CS. If your midwife is resistant to homebirth then that's sacrosanct medical advise that you must not question, even if it doesn't fit NICE guidelines about birth choices. If she's resistant to elective CS then that's just medical misogyny and you should march in clutching stats and guidelines and insisting that you know best and that it's entirely your choice.

@Sesnania14 this is beautifully put

Some of the comments in this thread are absolutely disgusting and anti feminist. Honestly if any one of you said this to my face I would struggle not to slap you. Come at me if someone has a problem with that. I'm fuming.

@Sesnania14

You literally admit your own answer in your OP.

But clarify women are routinely abused. its not a minority. They are frequently victims of various forms of obstetric violence. In fact people in homebirthing and freebirthing groups are also doctors are not held accountable when they assault women and their babies (see the Laura Galazzi case). Some women would rather risk freebirthing and all that comes with it.

Women are grown adults and may make their own choices. Women have bodily autonomy. Birth rights are actually very much enshrined in UK law for example (S v St George NHS trust) where a woman may freebirth to the point of death for her and her baby. Birth is an acr of sovereign and women can make what society 'deems' a bad choice. Some women would rather die or risk a stillbirth than be abused and medically raped in a hospital.

You said yourself you were coerced into an induction and that obscetricians lie by omission by not presenting options. I don't think its dangerous at all. Women are not stupid. Also probably address that misygony. Women have no ability to prevent stillbirth or guarantee pregnancy outcomes by their location. Where I am we had 6 babies die in the space of a year at a hospital during labour. These women were surrounded by doctors and had CTG monitors on them. Doesn't matter where you are, home or hospital,. medical professional or no.

This might also be hard for you to contemplate. Some women believe nature should take its course. Legally speaking once the baby is out they would need to commence infant ressuss, but if they wanted to risk that outcome with a premature baby that is their choice.

Im not sure why you are confused, upset or shocked about it? It seems misplaced. Perhaps you should be more angry at the maternity system that has driven women to take these risks.

You contradict yourself here and it needs addressing. You present your argument as if freebirthing has exactly the same level of risk as hospital birth but that is not even remotely true. You recognise this in your final statement where you say the maternity system drives women to take these risks.

Risk isn’t absolute. There are levels and degrees of risk. Hospital birth is significantly more likely to produce a good outcome in pregnancies where there are increased risk factored like IUGR, prematurity etc. In both free birth under these situations and hospital births there is a level of risk, but saying the 2 situations are therefore the same is wildly inaccurate.

Also, it is not misogyny to suggest some women are not aware of the full risks of freebirthing before they decide to follow that path. I’d argue it’s misogyny to suggest women are expected to know everything despite our education system not teaching critical thinking and therefore should be held totally responsible for birth outcomes. The way the Facebook groups present freebirthing is as if you will definitely have a terrible experience if you have a hospital birth and that freebirthing is somehow the best and only option for the ‘enlightened’. That’s a powerful bit of manipulation thats currently in use across all kinds of things at the moment that’s led to so many misguided decisions in everything from anti-vax to Brexit. I’m not comparing freebirthing to either of these things before you jump on that, I’m simply showing that the ‘our way or you’re wrong’ messaging of these groups is incredibly powerful.

This whole post isn’t about the rights or wrongs of freebirthing, it’s about the rights and wrongs of unqualified people online giving out medical advice as facts that they themselves heard 3rd hand from someone else unqualified. It’s not just birthing groups, it’s everywhere.

there is a huge difference between accepting other people’s right to free birth and promulgating fucking dangerous advice

So you are fine with free birthing so long as nobody actually talks about it or does it?
My question, which you seem to have missed is "what are you wanting to achieve?"

On MN complaining about group full of fruitcake free birthers will bring you your own gratifying echo chamber without question. Its not even friendly to standard home births.

But what are you actually changing by rounding up support here? Have you reported the groups to FB (or other host platforms) for dangerous and incorrect medical advice? Asked for a warning to be put on the relevant groups?

Because posting about it on another platform where the opposite view is prevalent achieves nothing in itself and just fudges and confuses home birth and free birthing here.

@dittymcdit

I agree with the privilege thing. It's similar to the anti-vax movement. In the west we have no memory or lived experience of common diseases such as measles killing people or causing serious harm largely because of vaccinations. We also have a relatively very low maternal mortality rate because of modern obstetrics and access to anti-natal and perinatal care. But some have chosen to ignore or forget this and harp back to natural immunity and how women have been giving birth for millennia. They chose not to read heartbreaking stories of women in less developed countries dying in childbirth because they don't have access to the care that we do, or kids dying of measles because they don't have access to affordable vaccinations. We really don't know we're born do we?

How old are you? I'm a 60s baby and I certainly remember the rare deaths but commoner damage from measles, death from diptheria and the misery sometimes left by whooping cough and other illnesses for which we now have vaccines.

Vaccine hesitancy in general is much more complex that simply a generation growing up taking them for granted.

Maternity choices are more likely to be related to the quality of care available to pregnant women within a country. In the UK a common reason for choosing home birth or IMW is the quality of care available.

@C8H10N4O2

there is a huge difference between accepting other people’s right to free birth and promulgating fucking dangerous advice

So you are fine with free birthing so long as nobody actually talks about it or does it?
My question, which you seem to have missed is "what are you wanting to achieve?"

On MN complaining about group full of fruitcake free birthers will bring you your own gratifying echo chamber without question. Its not even friendly to standard home births.

But what are you actually changing by rounding up support here? Have you reported the groups to FB (or other host platforms) for dangerous and incorrect medical advice? Asked for a warning to be put on the relevant groups?

Because posting about it on another platform where the opposite view is prevalent achieves nothing in itself and just fudges and confuses home birth and free birthing here.

Wilful misinterpretation here, talk about a straw man. Post isn’t about the rights and wrongs of free birth it’s about the giving out of incredibly dangerous advice that comes with peer pressure to follow it and vitriol when someone might question or even challenge their line of thinking. That’s equally as coercive as the medics those sort of groups oppose. There is also no accountability in terms of poor advice given, as it’s inevitably going to lead to an adverse outcome at some point (a few posters have shared their stories on this)

Never used the term fruitcake either.

Now that you mention it, that’s a wonderful idea! Fb does put ‘ fact checker’ on people who share fake news, dangerous medical advice should carry the same sort of disclaimer.
Although how hard would it be for someone to point out the risks say for instance in an iugr pregnancy before ultimately telling the woman it’s her choice to continue or follow medical advice or third options. That’s is real informed consent which is what a specific group claim is their ethos

Some of you guys had hideous NCT groups!

The contradiction is a yes and a no. Some women freebirth out of fear. And some a very highly educated and do it by choice and have herbs. illegally sourced drugs and taken neonatal ressuss courses. There are actually a lot of midwives and former medical personal in home and free birthing communities. Though yes a point on non medical people giving advice, but its up to you to educate yourself and read at the end of the day. Unfortunately women are told lies constantly by the medical system. My midwife threw a pamphlet at me on inductions and it literally downplayed the risks of what is a post partum haemmorage calling it 'a risk of a slight bleed.; I would argue the hospital presents more risk because technically its a germ infested building where sick people congregate and if you rea da lot of midwife researcg, most problems in birth are caused by interventions. 'Im still confused about what 'misinformation' you are claiming. Many times IUGR and macrosomia are wrongly diagnosed because ultrasound in the third trimester is often wrong. This is what those groups share. No accountability? There is also no accountbility to doctors who abuse women. Again look at what a doctor did to Laura Gallazi. Your complaints against these women misplaced. Be angry at the medical system for abusing women and less angry about women trying to give each other advice online because they get lied to and choosing to ignore medical advice. Leave them alone to their own devices and perhaps focus your efforts on the crappy maternity system.

Yes. Most of society unfortunately is misygonistic and have no respect for women's autonomy. Women are under no obligation to seek medical care in pregnancy or listen to healthcare providers and may birth as they wish, even risking death.

Wilful misinterpretation here, talk about a straw man.

No its simply reality. You think a group is dangerous? Take it up with the platform.

You want to virtue signal? Talk about it on another forum entirely which is generally anti home birth let alone free birthing and get that warm glow of echoes but change nothing.

Fruitcake was my word - its my experience of most free birthers.

To some extent I can understand the unease of pregnant women who feel that with NHS maternity care that they’re on some sort of conveyer belt with countless others and that their care lacks a ‘personal touch’.

But this is part of a - to me - reassuring picture. I’d much rather be in the care of specialist professionals who have medical qualifications, years of experience and who believe in evidence-based medicine. Maybe part of the reason some women feel like they’re on a conveyer belt is that the professionals have dealt with the exact situation they’re presenting with many times before. That is a good thing.

I’d much rather entrust my maternity care to experienced and busy trained medical staff. On the other hand if a doula or similar really did have endless hours available to listen to a pregnant woman waffling on about ‘curating’ their birth experience and how the birth would be unique and special this would raise red flags for me. There’s a reason doulas and random women on homebirth sites have more time to do this - they’re not in demand in the same way trained doctors and midwives are.

I don't know about other people but personally I wanted a birth with as little intervention as possible to maximise my chances of post birth complications, longer recovery and pain. I knew that on the postnatal ward I would be expected to look after myself and a newborn including sterilizing bottles etc so I wanted to be as well as possible afterwards.

With breastfeeding I found it so much easier than bottles, especially in the night and out and about. I had to bottle feed my 4th and it was a massive faff. Also found sterilizing bottles etc really hard on the postnatal ward 1 day after my c-section. With my 5th I could just scoop him out of the cot and breastfeed him which was so much easier.

@elliejjtiny

I don't know about other people but personally I wanted a birth with as little intervention as possible to maximise my chances of post birth complications, longer recovery and pain. I knew that on the postnatal ward I would be expected to look after myself and a newborn including sterilizing bottles etc so I wanted to be as well as possible afterwards.

With breastfeeding I found it so much easier than bottles, especially in the night and out and about. I had to bottle feed my 4th and it was a massive faff. Also found sterilizing bottles etc really hard on the postnatal ward 1 day after my c-section. With my 5th I could just scoop him out of the cot and breastfeed him which was so much easier.

Nobody WANTS intervention. Everyone wants as straightforward a birth and as quick a recovery as possible.

But most of us would rather have intervention when it's necessary than a bad outcome that could have been avoided or improved by medical care.

@Sesnania14

You literally admit your own answer in your OP.

But clarify women are routinely abused. its not a minority. They are frequently victims of various forms of obstetric violence. In fact people in homebirthing and freebirthing groups are also doctors are not held accountable when they assault women and their babies (see the Laura Galazzi case). Some women would rather risk freebirthing and all that comes with it.

Women are grown adults and may make their own choices. Women have bodily autonomy. Birth rights are actually very much enshrined in UK law for example (S v St George NHS trust) where a woman may freebirth to the point of death for her and her baby. Birth is an acr of sovereign and women can make what society 'deems' a bad choice. Some women would rather die or risk a stillbirth than be abused and medically raped in a hospital.

You said yourself you were coerced into an induction and that obscetricians lie by omission by not presenting options. I don't think its dangerous at all. Women are not stupid. Also probably address that misygony. Women have no ability to prevent stillbirth or guarantee pregnancy outcomes by their location. Where I am we had 6 babies die in the space of a year at a hospital during labour. These women were surrounded by doctors and had CTG monitors on them. Doesn't matter where you are, home or hospital,. medical professional or no.

This might also be hard for you to contemplate. Some women believe nature should take its course. Legally speaking once the baby is out they would need to commence infant ressuss, but if they wanted to risk that outcome with a premature baby that is their choice.

Im not sure why you are confused, upset or shocked about it? It seems misplaced. Perhaps you should be more angry at the maternity system that has driven women to take these risks.

You can’t present a free birth under any circumstances to a birth with medical assistance as having the same level of risk, that’s ludicrous. A free birth of someone who has declined all ante natal care is not the same as low risk pregnancy home birth with 2 midwives or a delivery suite birth from a risk point of view. Birth has risks no matter what but there are things such as free broth and declining ante natal care that obviously increase the risk. Also, it may be worth bearing in mind the reason for those babies deaths ie. Conditions incompatible with life and extreme prematurity and additionally people going against medical advice. You later go on to say some women are happy to take such risks so you’re contracting yourself here.

I will not deny obstetric violence and birth trauma and coercive care exist and are fucking traumatising, I said that in my OP, I even said I’m sympathetic having somewhat gone through it myself. I’m also (probably quite scandalously for MN) all for knowing what to say to get a better outcome in the system; ie on paper refusing induction to reach a middle ground with a consultant for pessary induction in an MLU setting (which those groups are really good for). But what’s really sickening is the blatant denial of risk in those groups especially in the cases of iugr et al.

I also think it’s important to distinguish flat out patriarchy and misogyny in obstetrics from coercion to meet clinical guidelines, both are obviously wrong but the drive to meet guidelines are based on how the nhs views risk. Let’s use iugr or sga for example, this is a fictional example baby at anatomy scan measured 25th centile and then 28 weeks fundal height descreasrd, growth scan ordered baby 10th centile, 30 weeks follow up growth scan 3rd centile, referral to fetal med. 33 weeks fetal med scan baby 3rd centile and resistance in dopplers. Weekly dopplers and every other week appointments with fetal med. a clear care of iugr, doctor will recommend induction at 37 weeks due to iugr and possible placental failure and increased risk of still birth. They can’t say for sure it will happen but that if they deliver at term it’s less likely than if the pregnancy continues. It’s just how risk works in the healthcare system, the doctor in this instances ultimate goal is a live baby and a live mother, birth preferences don’t factor into it as frankly there are more important things at stake.

However there are some things routed in misogyny like the grotesque husband stitch that’s akin to fgm and any doctor performing that should be struck off.

I am angry at the birthing system that’s caused so many women my self included trauma but the answer to that isn’t to shun all medicine. Birth is a physiological event that can become a medical one and that shouldn’t be denied

@Sesnania14

The contradiction is a yes and a no. Some women freebirth out of fear. And some a very highly educated and do it by choice and have herbs. illegally sourced drugs and taken neonatal ressuss courses. There are actually a lot of midwives and former medical personal in home and free birthing communities. Though yes a point on non medical people giving advice, but its up to you to educate yourself and read at the end of the day. Unfortunately women are told lies constantly by the medical system. My midwife threw a pamphlet at me on inductions and it literally downplayed the risks of what is a post partum haemmorage calling it 'a risk of a slight bleed.; I would argue the hospital presents more risk because technically its a germ infested building where sick people congregate and if you rea da lot of midwife researcg, most problems in birth are caused by interventions. 'Im still confused about what 'misinformation' you are claiming. Many times IUGR and macrosomia are wrongly diagnosed because ultrasound in the third trimester is often wrong. This is what those groups share. No accountability? There is also no accountbility to doctors who abuse women. Again look at what a doctor did to Laura Gallazi. Your complaints against these women misplaced. Be angry at the medical system for abusing women and less angry about women trying to give each other advice online because they get lied to and choosing to ignore medical advice. Leave them alone to their own devices and perhaps focus your efforts on the crappy maternity system.

Illegally sourced herbs? Not touching that one but surely an infant ressus or baby first aid course can’t be viewed in the same way as a suitable replacement for an actual medic who trained years in that specific thing.

Yes sometimes iugr is wrongly diagnosed, saving baby pathway should reduce this BUT many times it is diagnosed correctly, particularly with fetal med involvement and action is why those babies are here today.

Sorry but there is space to be angry at both, both a broken maternity system and a toxic alternative one that spouts informed consent yet shuts down opposition and denies risk.

In terms of accountability at least the mechanisms exist to put in a formal complaint healthcare wise.