AIBU- home birth social media support groups are f’ing dangeorus **Content warning - title edited by MNHQ**

[Namechangetimes100]

I’m in a few Fb home birth groups as I was planning to have one til the service got suspended, had an MLU birth instead and was absolutely fine! I’ve not left the group yet (probs should) but some of the advice given is fucking dangerous as hell.

The advice is free birth left right and centre. Birth at home for a pre term (35 week plus) baby, the woman did and the baby needed resus this was met with almost rapturous applause and more recently refuse induction or action for iugr. I mean ffs this advice can kill as well as the doctors = evil mentality.

I do totally believe and support informed consent and I do think that choice isn’t often presented to women in obstetrics and sometimes induction is made to seem like the only choice when it isn’t. I was coerced into induction with a ‘constitutionally small’ baby based on old guidelines so I’m sympathetic to a point to some of these opinions. But to even contemplate birthing a premature baby at home, fgs and a baby measuring under the 3rd centile and dropping and to refuse any sort of medical support in pursuit of the perfect home birth. I just don’t get it.

Any free birth or demanding midwives come out when there’s a national short staffing. It seems like a recipe for disaster.

I totally get my body my choice but seems like playing with fire In some instances to me-aibu?

GOD forbid women want to put themselves first and must be self sacrificial

@Sesnania14

No Ireland dies perform D and C during the era of the 8th amendment for miscarriges. She was treated differently and it absolutely had to do with racism among other things

Honestly, I don't like to get into debates on the Internet, but you appear to have really got the wrong end of the stick with the Savita Halappanavar case. Her case was not ever reported, by any source, to be to do with her race.

What happened to Savita was horrendous, shameful, and shocking. It rightfully sparked such anger in the general population that it led to the overturning of the eighth amendment and full reform of abortion law in Ireland.

Savita will always be remembered by the people of Ireland. But what happened to her happened not because of race (I've never even heard that as a theory - ??), but because of rigidly draconian anti-abortion laws. I mean that was the literally whole point of the outrage.

@Sesnania14

30% is way too high. You seem to be really dismissing these issues. Women are not obligated to listen to or follow medical advice. Does that upset you?

@Sesnania14 you have to be doing this on purpose now as I said 30% is way too high, the only acceptable number is 0%. But you’re making it seem like every woman who gives birth in hospital says they’re traumatised which by your own statistics isn’t the case. On that, do you have references for them btw?

You seem to be really dismissing the routine giving of dangerous advice, blatant encouragement of dangerous decisions and obscuring of risks in persist of home birth.

As I’ve said one million times now I’m pro home birth.

I saw a woman on TikTok tonight advocating for never registering with a midwife or telling the GP you're pregnant, not having scans and then having a 'free birthing doula' come and help at the birth

@RagzReturnedUnwrapped

I'm so sorry this has tainted your memory of your baby. All babies are beautiful however they are born. I'm so sorry for your loss xx

@Namechangetimes100

That post was also grim. The difference is those are named cases you can independently fact check and find out what is true and what is hyperbole. The other was someone graphically describing the experience of their unnamed, quite possibly fictional, ex friend, and no-one can do anything with that except be repulsed and traumatised.

I’d much rather entrust my maternity care to experienced and busy trained medical staff

Can people stop conflating free birth and home birth? It’s as ignorant as it is irritating. Homebirth has 2 trained NHS midwives at your house. It’s excellent 2 to 1 care - certainly much better in the run up than I found the hospital care to be.

Free birth is alone with no help. Homebirth is not. Homebirth is statistically as safe as hospital birth when the mother and foetus meet the criteria. Free birth is batshit.

To be fair I think it is fairly well known what happens medically in the case of an untreated stillbirth.

@whatnoraisins

All the more reason to refrain from being needlessly graphic.

Not the same but I was on some exclusively breast feeding and pumping for multiples groups when feeding my twins and people were booted out for giving their babies a bottle of formula once in a while. Some of the advice was downright dangerous IMO as these mothers were often clearly at the end of their tether and wanted support and validation but some of the other women would liken formula to POISON!

I just quietly took the useful advice while happily combination feeding my girls but I did often think it would be really hard for those needing support and wondered if some of the babies ended up being harmed from it all.

[quote Draineddraineddrained]@whatnoraisins

All the more reason to refrain from being needlessly graphic.[/quote]
Yes I believe the term is macerated and no one needs to google if they will find it potentially upsetting.

I just hate all this. The NHS isn't always going to do it's best for you but this approach on blanket not use of medical care isn't going to help you navigate this either

I had a home birth for my second, and it was definitely safer than my first (hospital) birth. I agree that this whole "just ignore the medical people" mentality is terrifying, and definitely comes from a place of privilege.

Those of you preferring home birth to crappy hospital births, would you go for hospital if the service was properly funded? It doesn't have to be like it is in the UK. Other places fund their hospitals adequately and make it a much more pleasant and safe experience.

As an aside the very best bf support group in know on Facebook is Breastfeeding Support and Information UK. The admins are all ABM trained peer supporters as a minimum, they always correct and where necessary delete when posters advise each other in contravention of medical advice and guidelines, they ensure that an admin clearly marked as such gives substantive advice and ongoing support to the mum asking a question. They never slate medical professionals (even when it is tempting to do so as advice is plain wrong) and instead signpost back to the relevant guidance and advise the mother to discuss this with their HCP. No mother is made to feel ashamed for using formula - advice is given on combi feeding and safely weaning from the breast. What they don't allow is recommending particular brands of formula, bottles, pumps etc as that's not within the remit of the group It's a really really wonderful supportive evidence based group and they got me through two difficult bf journeys.

Empowerment totally makes a difference to the care you receive as well in my view (apart from really severe cases of medical abuse where people are held down and harmed whilst shouting no, which sadly do happen but rarely). So often it's just a case of things being presented to patients as "so we're going to do this" as if there are no other options or right of refusal. Knowing a LOT about birthing and understanding that it is incumbent of THEM to have your informed consent, and your iron plated right to refuse any treatment you don't want, and that YOU are the patient with priority not your baby (not that many women would put their own interest ahead of their baby during labour), gives you the ability to hold your own in these situations, or even know you have an "own" to hold.

In my second birth once I was hospitalised, I made sure to use certain medical terminology about my condition and options; and to question the reasons and alternatives for everything they wanted me to do/do to me. This may have made me look like a PITA but it did set s tone straight away that I was not to be done to. That I knew my stuff and I knew my rights. And it made a massive difference to the quality of my care because it was clear I would not be trifled with. Groups can be really good for building that knowledge and confidence. But only if it's the right group.

Another thing that would increase women's willingness to go for hospital births would be a reduction of the strictures on access to MLUs, alongside ones in hospitals to mean. A lot of women are scared of the clinical environment, and the postnatal ward is almost invariably fucking hell on earth when you've just had a baby and desperately need comfort and sleep. The room I was put in (in the obstetric ward) for my second labour was the most dismal, cold, joyless hellhole, completely barren of any comfort whatsoever - even the birthing ball was deflated. I asked for something to go on the floor so I could kneel as this was how I was most comfortable labouring and was brought a stinking rubber mat of the sort you used to get for PE at school. I was freezing but they couldn't turn off the air con because it was operated across the whole building. It was a horrible, horrible place to give birth. I was only there due to meconium in waters, apart from that I was labouring well and rapidly. To have been in a room equipped for birth as well as for clinical assessment would have made a huge difference to me. But because I was indicated as too risky due to meconium that was that - the horrible butchers back room it was. Flexibility on this would prevent a lot of women turning to home and free birth.

I agree they need to relax the MLU rules. They’ve spent a ton of money on these lovely facilities and nobody’s allowed to use them!

It seems mad that a second or third time mum with a history of straightforward births has to go to the labour ward for something like BMI when a first time mother with no idea how she labours has the option of the MLU (if low risk).

My colleague chose a stand-alone MLU for her first baby. She was a picture of health and very low risk throughout her pregnancy, so it seemed a good choice. Labour started well but baby got stuck in second stage, she had a two hour wait for an ambulance & was eventually transferred to hospital for an instrumental delivery. She said on reflection she was given the impression that low risk = a straightforward birth, when the two aren’t really linked.

Yes I think I know which group you're referring to and I have seen a lot of similar sentiment. Things like if they don't send a midwife out to a home birth, due to short staff etc, then refuse to come in and they will have to send a midwife out to you. Dangerous and selfish.

There is also quite an overlap with anti vax, anti scans etc. I left the group.

And another thing...! Mobile monitoring is a bit of a con tbh. They'll say they offer it then it won't be available on the day, or thru do have it but despite bring wireless it still doesn't work properly unless you stay pretty much still which is surely what one is seeking to avoid. Continuous monitoring of any sort is always going to inhibit an active mobile labour. Which isn't to say it isn't sometimes needed. It was in my case, and picked up my baby's heart rate dropping and not recovering between contractions leading to me choosing a section. But the idea you can have permanent monitoring and it not affect your labouring is a bit of a lie in my experience. Maybe the midwives doing mine just didn't know how to use them properly!

You can't argue with stupid.

@Draineddraineddrained

Empowerment totally makes a difference to the care you receive as well in my view (apart from really severe cases of medical abuse where people are held down and harmed whilst shouting no, which sadly do happen but rarely). So often it's just a case of things being presented to patients as "so we're going to do this" as if there are no other options or right of refusal. Knowing a LOT about birthing and understanding that it is incumbent of THEM to have your informed consent, and your iron plated right to refuse any treatment you don't want, and that YOU are the patient with priority not your baby (not that many women would put their own interest ahead of their baby during labour), gives you the ability to hold your own in these situations, or even know you have an "own" to hold.

In my second birth once I was hospitalised, I made sure to use certain medical terminology about my condition and options; and to question the reasons and alternatives for everything they wanted me to do/do to me. This may have made me look like a PITA but it did set s tone straight away that I was not to be done to. That I knew my stuff and I knew my rights. And it made a massive difference to the quality of my care because it was clear I would not be trifled with. Groups can be really good for building that knowledge and confidence. But only if it's the right group.

I agree with everything you’ve said, but you really shouldn’t need to have all that knowledge in order to be treated like a human being. It’s a privilege to be able to have that knowledge and power, that not everyone has.

@KeflavikAirport

Those of you preferring home birth to crappy hospital births, would you go for hospital if the service was properly funded? It doesn't have to be like it is in the UK. Other places fund their hospitals adequately and make it a much more pleasant and safe experience.

That’s a good question. I’m not sure I would. But that’s only with the benefit of hindsight in that I had one catastrophic hospital birth followed by 3 lovely homebirths.

@TheOriginalEmu

Absolutely agree. It shouldn't be necessary. But in my sad experience it is. The trouble is I think HCPs are by their profession educated people,more so that the avg member of the population. So they more often than not find themselves dealing with people less informed than they are so consider themselves best placed to make decisions for them. Which tbh is often true! Even with my information finding and comprehension abilities and my confidence to express what I knew and wanted and didn't want (all privileges) I don't pretend I know as much as a qualified midwife! But some HCPs have probably hot into the habit of thinking "this will be difficult to explain properly, they won't understand anyway, and I know what the "right" decision is - I'll just shortcut to the bit where they agree with me". When informed consent actually requires that the patient understands both what's recommended and why and the alternatives, and is aware of their right to say no. If they don't have the knowledge themselves, it is incumbent on the HCP to inform them. Which got too many just seems to be too much of a ballache. I understand they are overworked, and often working in highly stressful and occasionally urgent situations. But the requirement for informed consent is still there.

A really good book by the way is "Why Human Rights In Childbirth Matter" - it's a very well researched and informative book that's short and easy to read. It really helps to understand the way "risk' is misused in maternal health care as a binary thing rather than as a specific statistical indicator that should be part of, but not the whole of, the medical decision making process. And it covers some of the medical abuse stories luridly described in a post above in a far more considered but nonetheless shocking fashion.