AIBU- home birth social media support groups are f’ing dangeorus **Content warning - title edited by MNHQ**

[Namechangetimes100]

I’m in a few Fb home birth groups as I was planning to have one til the service got suspended, had an MLU birth instead and was absolutely fine! I’ve not left the group yet (probs should) but some of the advice given is fucking dangerous as hell.

The advice is free birth left right and centre. Birth at home for a pre term (35 week plus) baby, the woman did and the baby needed resus this was met with almost rapturous applause and more recently refuse induction or action for iugr. I mean ffs this advice can kill as well as the doctors = evil mentality.

I do totally believe and support informed consent and I do think that choice isn’t often presented to women in obstetrics and sometimes induction is made to seem like the only choice when it isn’t. I was coerced into induction with a ‘constitutionally small’ baby based on old guidelines so I’m sympathetic to a point to some of these opinions. But to even contemplate birthing a premature baby at home, fgs and a baby measuring under the 3rd centile and dropping and to refuse any sort of medical support in pursuit of the perfect home birth. I just don’t get it.

Any free birth or demanding midwives come out when there’s a national short staffing. It seems like a recipe for disaster.

I totally get my body my choice but seems like playing with fire In some instances to me-aibu?

I had a home birth by myself on bathroom floor and quite frankly it was utterly terrifying.

Not something I would recommend to anyone

Maybe I should join the group and give my experience.

Baby arrived in less than 2 minutes which put me and baby both at high risk of death.

I live 45 minutes from nearest hospital so nothing would of saved us.

@indoctro that's not a home birth or a free birth, that's a BBA (birth before arrival) and I understand they can be utterly terrifying and can result in PTSD, I'm so sorry you had to go through that and I hope you and your baby are both doing well now. But there is a world of difference between s precipitate labour resulting in an unplanned unattended birth and a planned home birth attended by midwives, or even a planned and wanted free birth (not that I'd recommend one of those either).

@Sesnania14

GOD forbid women want to put themselves first and must be self sacrificial

But it’s not as simple as being selfish or selfless though, it’s how we frame the process and the outcomes were are most focused on. The desire for a healthy baby is ultimately selfish but sometimes that can get a bit lost in the focus on the birth itself (which is often driven by fear of the process).

I was really focused on having a “good” birth / avoiding a bad one with my first. Terrified of the pain, the unknown, terrified of ending up with a c-section. And it was an awful birth but the swift action of a crash team saved DS.

With my second I totally reframed my own desires as being about the birth outcome, not the birth itself. I still think of that as a selfish choice, not a sacrifice, I had simply shifted the focus of what was most important to me.

I

[quote Draineddraineddrained]@indoctro that's not a home birth or a free birth, that's a BBA (birth before arrival) and I understand they can be utterly terrifying and can result in PTSD, I'm so sorry you had to go through that and I hope you and your baby are both doing well now. But there is a world of difference between s precipitate labour resulting in an unplanned unattended birth and a planned home birth attended by midwives, or even a planned and wanted free birth (not that I'd recommend one of those either).[/quote]
Ah ok I see

Yes very much not what I would of planned I'm very much for hospital birth.

Baby had other ideas though , all turned out ok in the end thankfully

Check out this www.instagram.com/p/CWpncWAs4-Y/?utm_medium=copy_link

I'm really glad to hear it all was ok in the end 😊

@Sesnania14 I think in your haste to respond to the latest posts you may have missed my post in which I asked for the source of your assertion that “Western countries have up to 30% of women suffering birth trauma, most of which is caused by obscetric [sic] violence”. I’d be fascinated to read it - could you post it, please?

@KeflavikAirport

Those of you preferring home birth to crappy hospital births, would you go for hospital if the service was properly funded? It doesn't have to be like it is in the UK. Other places fund their hospitals adequately and make it a much more pleasant and safe experience.

So @KeflavikAirport for me one of the main motivation was actually being at home, we don’t have reliable childcare and i wanted my husband at the birth. My first was an induction and the quality of care, specifically as you weren’t allowed birth partners unless in active labour was really terrifying to me, i was genuinely worried about going overdue and the possibility of an induction. My experience on the post natal ward contributed massively to my pnd first time around. Knowing that those issues would be fixed would have made me feel much more relaxed about the possibility.

As it stands I had an MLU birth, and it’s sad to say but there is a huge difference in how you are treated there v delivery suite

@ThatLibraryMiss

There are heaps of studies on it on pubmed,NIH, BMJ if you type in birth trauma. This article quotes several studies and mentions the statistics with a link. But of course we all know these are subject to criticism and limitations. Hope it starts as a guidance. This focuses on the UK, but I believe both Australia and America had the same rates of birth trauma. Apologies for missing, lots replied. Hope that is a starting point. Some Australian midwives recently made a documentry on the issue called 'Birth Time.'Worth the watch.
www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2019.00056/full#B2

@Draineddraineddrained

As an aside the very best bf support group in know on Facebook is Breastfeeding Support and Information UK. The admins are all ABM trained peer supporters as a minimum, they always correct and where necessary delete when posters advise each other in contravention of medical advice and guidelines, they ensure that an admin clearly marked as such gives substantive advice and ongoing support to the mum asking a question. They never slate medical professionals (even when it is tempting to do so as advice is plain wrong) and instead signpost back to the relevant guidance and advise the mother to discuss this with their HCP. No mother is made to feel ashamed for using formula - advice is given on combi feeding and safely weaning from the breast. What they don't allow is recommending particular brands of formula, bottles, pumps etc as that's not within the remit of the group It's a really really wonderful supportive evidence based group and they got me through two difficult bf journeys.

@Draineddraineddrained actually disagree a little bit, I’m on that group too. Whilst most of the advice is fantastic, the whole ‘dangers of formula’ is vastly overstated and I had such a difficult journey with my first im glad I didn’t see that when I had to combi feed her, would have tipped me over the edge, but I was in a very fragile place.

I’m all for breastfeeding, currently breast feeding my second child and did my first for 21 months, but they do overstate the benefits of it. That’s not necessarily on them though as the nhs website does too. Same with the introducing solids but, ‘food before 1 is for fun’ yes don’t get hung up on quantities but babies do need iron.

Even if hospital care was better funded no I wouldn’t want to go in.

My issue wasn’t the birth itself that was straight forward it was the care and attitudes on the midwifes on ward, it was the not believing anything I said about my own baby and basically letting him starve for over 24 hours because they knew better than me and wouldn’t let me give him formula or get a consultant down to visit. I was left at 3am with a screaming baby who hadn’t fed since 2pm on the phone to my dh in tears while midwifes just said it was my fault my baby wasn’t eating.

Turns out it wasn’t my fault at all but their ignorance and lack of carrying out a full check on him when I finally got a consultant gone 4pm the following day who at first still tried to blame me then found the issue.

I also labour fast and prefer to actually be treated like a human being and listened to which you get with home birth midwifes who care for you, your entire pregnancy rather than a string of random midwifes.

There’s definitely a lot of dangerous breastfeeding ‘advice’ around, and in many cases the unquestioning devotion to breastfeeding is vastly disproportionate to the benefits it actually has.

I saw one particularly horrifying post on here, a poster’s 6 month old baby weighed nine pounds because she was adamant she wouldn’t formula feed & battled the medics at every turn. People responded encouraging her, saying the baby was obviously constitutionally small! Then when OP posted saying her baby had doubled its weight within a few months of weaning, she was all ‘I wonder why baby has suddenly had a huge growth spurt’. Clearly trying to avoid admitting she had underfed the baby at any cost.

@Disobedience101

I think you need to step away from the internet and get some fresh air.

I haven’t seen the 35 weekend story you mention (just tried to search now as I’m a member of a few groups) but I’ve always found the groups so helpful and informed.

Some people do want free births and there will be people there who support that but I’ve not seen anyone pressured into it. This can be for a number of reasons including previous abuse in the medical system. I would rather people had access to information to help them make an informed decision and give birth safely.

When the HB service was suspended in my area at the start of the pandemic, a free birth was something that was suggested to me on one of the groups. I listened to opinions on it and it wasn’t for me. Also it felt some what selfish given the reasons for suspension were due to lack of ambulance staff. Equally the information I was given was helpful as I live quite a distance from the hospital and my biggest concern was giving birth at the side of the road as my second child had come mega quick. As it happened, I made it to hospital, the staff were fantastic and I had my daughter in the MLU with a home birth midwife present.

One of the reasons I had been against going into hospital was the unnecessary medical interventions which led to my first child having a difficult birth and the fact medical decisions were made for me not by me in labour that time. I was concerned about my husband not being allowed there as I felt I needed him to advocate to keep myself and my baby safe. Actually, the hospital were fab. The midwife who saw me on arrival respected my wishes not to have a vaginal examination even though it clearly took her out of her comfort zone. She also used her instinct and knowledge to see I was clearly quite far along and told me to get my husband in ASAP

@Disobedience101 I think you need help, the likes of which can’t be found on MNs on any home birth groups.

But to unpick the wealth of shite you got from my OP.

• bodily autonomy, erm what? Of course I do, my issue is the stupid and dangerous info being passed off as fact by people with ‘experience’ on ‘support groups’ which is definitely not evidence based, it’s not even common sense based. How you’ve conflated the two is baffling z

-never said women have to put up with abuse… again the inference is astounding. And also you refer to your baby as ‘fetus’- flipping heck. I’d do anything to keep my kids safe.

• not all the info on these home birth groups is incorrect, some is great! However, there is a trend that all medicine is evil and a pattern of encouraging really dangerous practices ie shunning intervention and additional monitoring for iugr, prem home birth without assistance and even home birth with pre e potentially without assistance . That is not an educated opinion that’s flat out dangerous advice that no one with a clue would ever give that out.

-jealous of women ‘brave enough to free broth’ erm no. And sorry but I don’t consider it brave more like reckless.

• the not doctors thing, oh please. With that attitude i imagine you never see any sort of medical professionals and exclusively treat any ailment you may have with herbs from your kitchen, crystals and the power of positive thinking.

I’m very confused by your ancestry.com tirade, it’s bizarre. Also no one is harassing pregnant women.

If you can’t see imploring a woman to ignore early delivery of a baby who’s placenta is failing in order to save her baby’s life is bad and dangerous advice, then I don’t know what to tell you.

@Lifeisnteasy Christ, was the baby prem or iugr? Did she mention the birth weight? Thats terrifying

[quote Namechangetimes100]@Disobedience101 I think you need help, the likes of which can’t be found on MNs on any home birth groups.

But to unpick the wealth of shite you got from my OP.

• bodily autonomy, erm what? Of course I do, my issue is the stupid and dangerous info being passed off as fact by people with ‘experience’ on ‘support groups’ which is definitely not evidence based, it’s not even common sense based. How you’ve conflated the two is baffling z

-never said women have to put up with abuse… again the inference is astounding. And also you refer to your baby as ‘fetus’- flipping heck. I’d do anything to keep my kids safe.

• not all the info on these home birth groups is incorrect, some is great! However, there is a trend that all medicine is evil and a pattern of encouraging really dangerous practices ie shunning intervention and additional monitoring for iugr, prem home birth without assistance and even home birth with pre e potentially without assistance . That is not an educated opinion that’s flat out dangerous advice that no one with a clue would ever give that out.

-jealous of women ‘brave enough to free broth’ erm no. And sorry but I don’t consider it brave more like reckless.

• the not doctors thing, oh please. With that attitude i imagine you never see any sort of medical professionals and exclusively treat any ailment you may have with herbs from your kitchen, crystals and the power of positive thinking.

I’m very confused by your ancestry.com tirade, it’s bizarre. Also no one is harassing pregnant women.

If you can’t see imploring a woman to ignore early delivery of a baby who’s placenta is failing in order to save her baby’s life is bad and dangerous advice, then I don’t know what to tell you.[/quote]
My baby was induced due to issues with the placenta, not sure what the outcome would have been if I didn't have an induction, but I'm glad I did.
Regardless of specific groups and viewpoints, anyone who would like to accept an induction but is being urged to refuse - it isn't any sort of failure nor is it ignoring your body. My body was (correctly) telling me something wasn't quite right, which led to induction.
There is always a choice, just don't feel pressured either way.

[quote Namechangetimes100]@Lifeisnteasy Christ, was the baby prem or iugr? Did she mention the birth weight? Thats terrifying[/quote]
Not at all, born at 38 weeks, 7 pounds something I can’t remember exactly but definitely not small.

That’s the point @5keletor to be truly informed either way, to understand the risks either way and if these groups really believed in informed consent that’s what they’d do, but they don’t it’s shunning medicine over anything

@Namechangetimes100

That’s the point *@5keletor* to be truly informed either way, to understand the risks either way and if these groups really believed in informed consent that’s what they’d do, but they don’t it’s shunning medicine over anything

I genuinely don’t think a lot of decisions are ‘informed decisions’. I think a lot of women select the birth they want and then cherry-pick the information to convince themselves it’s the right thing to do. People won’t admit it’s for crunchy mum points, but a lot of it is.

@Lifeisnteasy feel like this could be a separate thread but that baby would have been beyond the pale fo faltering growth, surely this was escalated?!

I do understand that the mum wanted to breastfeed and as the mums goal was to breastfeed that should have been supported as to why the baby wasn’t thriving on exclusive breastfeeding. I understand wanting to give your baby breast milk but what I don’t get why pumping wasn’t an option or why an NG tube wasn’t recommended. That situation sounds like it could be deadly and that child is definitely not constitutionally small, that only applies to babies born small through a non pathological reason (ie placenta failure). Yes children can have catch down growth but that doesn’t entail falling off the charts.

Sorry I think you’ve confused me with another post?

Ohhhh wait no you’ve haven’t! Sorry I thought you were referring to my MLU story not the bfing one 🤦🏼‍♀️ need a coffee…

Would Mn allow me to post the thread here? It’s from years ago & no sign of poster still being around.