To think women are often oppressed through the label of Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder (also known as BPD)

[UndertheCedartree]

I made a post recently asking a question which was answered by many posters and the thread gave me the help I needed. However, many posters cited that no one could help me and even did Advanced searches and from that claimed I couldn't be helped because of my mental illness. It was said noone could understand my post if they didn't know this although it was irrelevant to my question and this was proved by all those who helped without knowing that. This is not a TAAT - it is about the general ableism shown to those with EUPD who are mainly women.

The name of the mental illness itself causes people to think there is a problem with our moral character or our personality but that is not the case. EUPD is an illness of mood and how one interacts with others.

Women with EUPD are often described as manipulative. However, this is not one of the symptoms of EUPD. Sometimes a woman described as manipulative is simply trying to seek the attention they require.

Women with EUPD are often described as abusive. However, the truth is most women with EUPD have suffered trauma often as a result of all types of abuse. Of course anyone can be abusive but it is not a symptom of EUPD. Most of us are more at risk of being abused ourselves.

Women with EUPD are often called 'drama queens'. It is often this invalidating environment in childhood along with trauma and differences in the brain which leads to EUPD.

People think it can't be cured. It can, although most aren't cured but some learn to live with the illness. The Gold standard treatment is DBT. Most women are not able to access this.

Woman also tend to be labelled EUPD when they are in fact Autistic. Because they dont exhibit the same behaviours as autistic men /boys and autistic females exhibit similar behaviours to those with EUPD they get labelled then dismissed.

apologies I see the Autism link has been mentioned but it is a big issue

@Yummypumpkin

I absolutely commend you on this post.

I also note that yet again amongst some helpful comments are some very ignorant ones.

The trend now in psychodynamic therapy is not to focus on a diagnosis, and this partly due to the issues you raise.

It's a very broad spectrum. The diagnostic criteria are inaccurate and behaviourally bases rather than emotion based (which given the condition is very unhelpful).

I advise anyone with all but the most severe BPD not to ever publicise their diagnosis....because people will suddenly stop responding to you as a human. As EUPD stems from not having needs and validity acknowledged, the impact of this is even more devastating.

At the same time, if more people who suffer from issues of trauma, neglect and attachment could share this, attitudes would change.

I don't know what the answer this, but it is a thread I will watch with interest.

Thank you so much. I agree that it is a very complex situation. And often a vicious circle where the way people respond to people with this diagnosis just makes things worse.

Completely agree.

The symptoms of BPD are usually complex trauma symptoms.

I developed symptoms consistent with BPD after prolonged severe abuse and believed I was 'crazy', too needy, hysterical, unstable, etc. This was how I had been treated my entire life.

Thankfully the person I saw immediately refuted that and explained that someone subjected to abuse, emotionally and physically neglected, gaslighted, and disrespected will naturally develop these coping mechanisms.

It took a long time to adjust to the fact that I wasn't 'crazy,' it was the people in my life that were - and that was harder to come to terms with, because the enormity of it just felt so upsetting and hopeless. It was easier to just believe I was the problem. But ultimately, thanks to having one person confirm my reality, I was able to leave that behind.

Really interesting thread. I'm another one whose life has been transformed by DBT. Someone in my DBT group once said they thought anyone/everyone would benefit from DBT, not just those of us with BPD/EUPD, and we all agreed. (Although I suppose we are in more urgent need of the training/learning than most people).
If anyone here hasn't tried it, honestly it can make such a difference.

The ASD crossover is interesting too. I have severe misophonia and some other traits that I've encountered in children with ASD that I've taught and I have sometimes wondered. Not sure if it's worth pursuing diagnosis though.

@ancientgran

I used to work with someone with BPD but he was a man. He was really lovely but then would go off his meds and do very bizarre things. He also got into lots of debt when he was off his meds. I don't know if he had suffered abuse. Is it different in women?

From my understanding it is usually women who are diagnosed with EUPD and often men with the same symptoms are diagnosed with Anti-social PD. However, yes men can be given an EUPD diagnosis. The debt probably stems from impulsive behaviour. The 'bizarre' things are maybe linked to dissociation/paranoia or a psychotic episode.

@Cyberworrier

Really interesting thread. I'm another one whose life has been transformed by DBT. Someone in my DBT group once said they thought anyone/everyone would benefit from DBT, not just those of us with BPD/EUPD, and we all agreed. (Although I suppose we are in more urgent need of the training/learning than most people). If anyone here hasn't tried it, honestly it can make such a difference.

I agree. I have done the whole DBT program twice (have a BPD diagnosis), and said the same thing.

@picklemewalnuts

What an interesting thread, thank you OP. I have some knowledge of attachment disorders, and CPTSD, and an awareness that girls with attachment disorders often get the BPD or EUPD diagnosis later.

There may also be a cross over with FAS, too. A trauma history does seem to lead to various diagnoses in adulthood, that could quite simply be understood as trauma responses.

Thank you, that is very interesting.

I second psychologist Jessica Taylor. She's on Facebook too, really taking apart what these labels mean and how they stigmatise very natural understandable reactions to trauma.

Also the book Cracked by James Davies if you're interested in the history of the DSM and all the different mental health diagnoses. Quite alarming how arbitrary much of it is when you realise the impact & influence it holds.

I have been diagnosed with EUPD. I long have suspected I have autism. I never knew there was a link, so I thank you. I'll be taking it up with my doctor ASAP to be referred back to my psychiatrist.

@TedMullins, would you mind saying what your new medication is? I really identify with your self-awareness and acknowledge my own past (and present?) manipulative and/or abusive behaviours.

@jb7445 - the symptoms all made sense to me and as I had a great team around me the diagnosis helped. However, as someone else said I am very careful who I tell and even more so on here as there is so much misinformation and stigma around it.

@TedMullins

I have a very different experience. I have been diagnosed with BPD/EUPD and honestly since my diagnosis my life and past has made so much more sense to me, and allowed me to thrive.

I have mixed feelings on the existence of BPD as a disorder –I don't doubt that it may have come about as a result of medical misogyny and misunderstanding of trauma. I believe it is wrongly given to some women with complex trauma whose behaviour is a reaction to that. But outside of the ethics of it, I do believe that for some people it is a helpful framework to understand why they feel like they do, and start taking steps to overcome the unhealthy behaviours that come with it.

Being diagnosed for me led to me being prescribed a medication – on top of my antidepressants – that made a huge positive difference to my life, and allowed me to feel stable and not have massive responses to my triggers in the first time in my whole life. It's possible I could've got to this point with a different diagnosis but I don't know as that's not what happened.

I'm afraid to say that for me personally, I do believe that it sometimes manifested with manipulative and abusive behaviour in romantic relationships. This was almost always in response to being treated badly (I was very drawn to people with mental health issues of their own, which usually made for toxic relationships) but I have done things in the past which I personally have no issue in calling abusive, such as threatening to hurt myself if someone dumped me, punching someone in the face during an argument, bombarding someone with endless verbally abusive messages when they'd asked me to leave them alone. Now, I'm not absolving the other people here of any wrongdoing – like I said, this was always as a result of being treated poorly. Since I've been on the new meds I have not had any urges to behave like this, and I feel much stronger in myself to recognise red flags from someone else and walk away before things get anywhere near that stage.

I'm very open about my diagnosis and I've honestly never received any negativity about it. I've had people message me to thank me for being open about it. I haven't lost any friends, I haven't been judged or wrongly ascribed behaviours by my therapist –if anything she's the opposite and encourages me not to be so hard on myself or label myself if I'm reacting to a negative stimulus.

So while I don't doubt it is a problematic disorder, for me it actually gave me a vital understanding of my behaviour. It is a result of trauma, and having psychodynamic therapy to explore the roots of it and the effect of childhood trauma has also been vital for me, but the BPD diagnosis gave me a framework in which to identify my triggers and start resetting my thought patterns so I have to say for me, the diagnosis has overall been a positive thing.

That's great to hear a positive story. And indeed for me there have be many positives. Now, I am not going to say that my behaviour has never been manipulative or abusive. I'm ashamed to say I got into a fight with a girl on my acute and also at this time when I was very unwell I self-harmed and sent a picture of it to my boyfriend to make him feel guilty. However, that is a tiny part of my story. And plenty of people are abusive or manipulative without this diagnosis. It is not part of the diagnostic criteria and people with EUPD should not be tarred with this brush.

@colouringindoors

YADNBU OP

In my opinion, diagnosis of complex post traumatic stress disorder 8s more appropriate in many cases.

And YES to the poster who mentioned it's not acceptable for women to get shouty or assertive.

Another Dr Jessica Taylor fan here - recommend her book "Why women are blamed for everything".

Thanks OP.

One of the ways I have experienced the stigma against women being assertive/shouty is with Social Services meetings. When I would get angry and try to stick up for myself and my DC it was always just seen as the 'crazy' woman acting like that because of her diagnosis! So frustrating!

@Tizzwazz

EUPD/BPD can be treated with therapy (DBT). Therapy is viewed as successful if the client no longer meets the criteria there-afterwards. Using the term remission when therapy is successful would then be appropriate.

The diagnosis has nothing to do with being manipulative or a ‘bad’ person. It has been stigmatised in the past but slowly the light is being shone on what it means for the individual - individuals who are in need of help and support.

Condemnation and generalisations brought about by ignorance is stigmatising.

♥️

Thank you for a lovely positive post!

When I did DBT it was seen as successful if it helped you 'live a life worth living'. I still have many symptoms but I can cope so much better.

DBT is not always offered in the proper way, imo. There is a group in the community where I am that meets once a week over zoom. It is not run by psychologists, there is no 1:1 or coaching. Obviously, I get it is because of money and lots of people don't want to commit to long term inpatient treatment. But for me the 'real' DBT was 100 times better.

This is of huge interest to me, btw I never called this person a drama queen but I am ashamed to say I thought it,, and thought it was all attention seeking and made up.

So is it curable?

@coffeeisthebest... she lives in Ireland and even after she has been sectioned and when she came out, her team have suggested therapy and ‘other things we can look into’, she has been offered NOTHING! It’s back to medication and when she is ‘stable’ ie totally suppressed.. there is no impetus to change. It’s hard as I don’t live there.. but even when I have tried to offer options.. EMDR and other therapies.. she does not really engage.

@RunningInTheWind

I was first sent to a psychiatrist at 7 years old.

When I was 27 I was diagnosed with BPD. But it didn’t really make sense to me, I’d never felt attention-seeking/manipulative - and just always felt I reacted badly t people straight up lying to my face.

At 47 (thanks to reading on this site about misdiagnosis) I was diagnosed autistic.

Which makes a whole load more fucking sense - and why I couldn’t play office politics for shit.

Fwiw, one of my best friends is a psychiatrist and I’ve known her since I was 10. When I told her she pulled a face and said “BPD no way, autism yeh, I see that”.

But that's the point attention seeking and manipulative behaviour are not part of EUPD. I have ASD too and the cross over is massive. I just wish there weren't still crappy psychiatrists that think having EUPD is bad and still think being manipulative is part of it. I think that's why she 'pulled the face' - she thought people with EUPD were manipulative attention seekers - but having Autism is morally 'ok'. As I said the cross over is massive, but even if someone just has EUPD - that is ok too!

@Ozanj

I was diagnosed as a teen but the doctor at the time totally ignored that my down moods coincided with my period. When I tried to tell him he got annoyed and asked my mum why I hadn’t taught her that girls shouldn’t talk about certain things . Twenty years later it was discovered that I had thyroid issues and pcos and that they were causing such heavy periods and all of my symptoms. As soon as I obtained treatment I became well.

You poor thing, what an awful situation.

@VelvetChairGirl

I am confused as BPD stands for boarderline personality disorder.

Yes, Borderline Personality Disorder is an older name for EUPD.

I was almost diagnosed with BPD, then Bipolar, but it turns out I have ADHD. I took part in a DBT trial and I personally the skills learnt would be really helpful for everyone, BPD or not.

@eloquent

It's very true YANBU. Also, I would suggest any woman diagnosed with eupd/bpd push for autistic assesment, as autistic women are often misdiagnosed with eupd/bpd.

That’s very interesting. I have been diagnosed as having BPD and over the last couple of years several people have asked if I am autistic, if I have been assessed for autism, commented that I show autistic traits etc.

@Atypicaldancer

I posted a thread about my Dd, 15, who is being assessed for ADHD and autism. So many posters suggested BPD/EUPD - even when I said her psychiatrist had suggested an autism assessment.

There is a lot of crossover with ADHD/Autism/EUPD. But I would follow what your psychiatrist suggests. I have found DBT skills have helped with my autism too.

I don't know how true this is statistically, but one of my best friends has BPD and one of her psychiatrists told her the reason more women are diagnosed is a lot of men with the condition end up in prison/drug addicts/homeless by living with it untreated, at this point they are unlikely to be diagnosed. Women tend to try and struggle on (often as they have caring responsibilities) and so have more chance of being diagnosed in the community, or after self harming/having a breakdown.

Like a previous poster my friends mental health has improved since diagnosis as she felt (and friends/family agree) that she fits almost all the criteria and now has a reason for the way she feels. Accessing DBT is helpful, but it's definitely learning to live with it rather than something that could cure someone.

The way she described the condition is that all emotions feel magnified and physically painful. So for example if someone cancels on her for a night out, she has extreme reactions of sadness, anger, feeling abandoned and depressed. She has attempted suicide as she didn't want to live with all the emotional pain. I might be wrong but this doesn't sound similar to how living with autism for women is described at all.