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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel 0 sympathy-24 hours in police custody *MNHQ adding content warning for distressing information regarding a child*

279 replies

Menmy3 · 04/01/2022 23:58

AIBU to have absolutely no sympathy for poor baby Teddie’s useless mother. Going from one man to the next allowing one into her home that was clearly abusing her children and not protecting them. I know she was the victim of DV and usually I’d be advocating for her 100% but she showed no emotion, no remorse. Those poor babies.

OP posts:
LakieLady · 05/01/2022 13:50

@Royalbloo

As an abuse survivor I agree with all that Ecosaurus has said. Especially this:

I actually don't think the Police where that great - some were, some were not. Some of the questioning from one of the police men was a bit chilling for me to watch. The fact that they only acted after a baby had died - the fact that Kane had no prior history on his records, and that the children also had no child protection notes on their records, despite multiple call outs and complaints just shows what an absolutely cluster fuck was made by all services, including the police.

I wonder if that's partly because the home environment and the mother's presentation didn't conform to the stereotype of a struggling family?

The flat appeared clean and well furnished and the mother plainly took a lot of care of her own appearance and spent money on nails, microblading etc, although they were overcrowded even before Teddie's birth, with 3 children in a 2-bed property.

BertieBotts · 05/01/2022 13:53

Well of course this is true. You will never solve every case but every intervention has a chance of helping.

I had not heard of the troubled families scheme (will go and read about it now) but that sounds too targeted almost. I think smaller but numerous changes could all add up. And yes it will take decades to have any noticeable effect. But in the meantime individuals will have better experiences.

GrannyWeatherwaxsHatpin · 05/01/2022 13:53

@Blinky21

Yet when children from families like these grow up to offend themselves, the media headlines call them 'evil' and they get locked up
Absolutely.

The child victims we feel so sorry for today are the potential abusers of tomorrow. But there's no sympathy for them then. We somehow expect them to have pulled themselves up by their bootstraps despite not having any bootstraps, or indeed boots.

Emerald5hamrock · 05/01/2022 13:55

I wondered if she had perhaps been abused as a child herself, or lived in a household where DV took place.
Unfortunately I believe that is true, learnt behaviour and the circles of destruction in families carries on without changing, the lucky ones who create a good lifestyle usually have a reliable other half or they're very independent.
I've lived in the inner city most of my life and many don't know any better.
There are generations suffering addiction and abuse.
If she'd have got him out he'd probably break in and murder her, there really is poor support from stalking or ex partner abuse unless she ran away, it wouldn't be easy to break free.
Those poor babies. Sad

Ecosaurus · 05/01/2022 13:58

@LakieLady Yes - the thing there should be no stereotypes - a lack of emotion could be that she didn't give a flying fuck, or it could be that she was completely traumatised.

Like you have said - a clean house, a nicely dressed women (both things that narcissistic men tend to control through abuse) should not be taken as a sign things are all OK when there's been multiple calls to agencies.

The fact those children had no safeguarding flags on any of their records mean that schools, nurses, GPs - people they probably have some trust in- had no idea what was going on.

lastqueenofscotland · 05/01/2022 14:14

She seemed so institutionalised by abuse. I wonder if she thought it was normal/acceptable (while understanding that others wouldn’t) because that’s how she was brought up?
I’ve a friend (who doesn’t have children) who’s parents were, “physical” (probably more acceptable then in the late 40s) but her mum in particular sounds really nasty. She gets that that’s not the done thing but she doesn’t see why/see the harm in it. She also had a very abusive relationship for a while.

It really needs to be picked up early.
How many adult criminals transpire to have grown up in, at best, chaotic, at worse violently abusive homes?

Charmatt · 05/01/2022 14:22

My Mum came from a very abusive household - physical violence, alcoholism, neglect and emotional abuse. She would have been in care today, but at the time, she was invisible. She was often locked in the attic for days at a time while her parents were either drunk, or out getting drunk. She suffered beatings regularly and her parents were very cold, emotionally. She came a very poor 3rd,4th or 5th to drink and the lifestyle they wanted.

I understand the opinion that the woman in the programme was a victim of abuse, but my Mum has very strident views on this. She says the abuse she suffered has damaged her ad left her less of a person. However, in recognising she was abused, she also recognised that it was not acceptable to repeat the cycle herself. She says that people cannot be a victim, but them make their child victims too!

That said, my Mum is amazing. She cut her family off to give us a decent life. She is wise and grounded and she strongly feels that we all have to take responsibility for our actions. No man would have come before her children, and no man ever did. She was equal to my Dad and they had a strong mutually respectful relationship, which was my model.

She couldn't ever let her parents back in - I remember her upset when they sent a Christmas card and she recognised the writing on the envelope. She picked it up and walked to the bin with it at arms length before putting it in there, unopened. She needed to retain control over the situation.

We watched the programme and my daughter watched it too. We talked a lot about her knowing her own worth and never to put up with controlling behaviour.

The eldest child speaking really touched me - so eloquent and intelligent, yet concerned about their mother, who had been there when he had physically abused the children.

Ecosaurus · 05/01/2022 14:23

How many adult criminals transpire to have grown up in, at best, chaotic, at worse violently abusive homes?

There's a huge link between Adverse Childhood Experiences and people ending up in prisons, sadly it's been ignored for a while - but there's lots of people speaking about it and fighting against it now to ensure better care is provided at the childhood level.

sundaydayisnotmyfundayday · 05/01/2022 14:31

@Charmatt

My Mum came from a very abusive household - physical violence, alcoholism, neglect and emotional abuse. She would have been in care today, but at the time, she was invisible. She was often locked in the attic for days at a time while her parents were either drunk, or out getting drunk. She suffered beatings regularly and her parents were very cold, emotionally. She came a very poor 3rd,4th or 5th to drink and the lifestyle they wanted.

I understand the opinion that the woman in the programme was a victim of abuse, but my Mum has very strident views on this. She says the abuse she suffered has damaged her ad left her less of a person. However, in recognising she was abused, she also recognised that it was not acceptable to repeat the cycle herself. She says that people cannot be a victim, but them make their child victims too!

That said, my Mum is amazing. She cut her family off to give us a decent life. She is wise and grounded and she strongly feels that we all have to take responsibility for our actions. No man would have come before her children, and no man ever did. She was equal to my Dad and they had a strong mutually respectful relationship, which was my model.

She couldn't ever let her parents back in - I remember her upset when they sent a Christmas card and she recognised the writing on the envelope. She picked it up and walked to the bin with it at arms length before putting it in there, unopened. She needed to retain control over the situation.

We watched the programme and my daughter watched it too. We talked a lot about her knowing her own worth and never to put up with controlling behaviour.

The eldest child speaking really touched me - so eloquent and intelligent, yet concerned about their mother, who had been there when he had physically abused the children.

This brought tears to my eyes. What an incredible lady. She doesn't sound less of a person for it to me x
oakleaffy · 05/01/2022 14:33

@JohnStonesMissus

There will always be those women who put "their man" above all else including their own children, why?! I will never ever understand it, is their self esteem so shit that they allow any bastard in to their children's lives just so it makes them feel good about themselves? When that poor child was giving evidence I was in bits...they're so innocent in all of this.
I couldn’t watch the programme as I’d be too upset and sickened. It seems that women who stick with these vile little shits can have no love or compassion for their children…and yet get pregnant again with predictable, depressing regularity.

No easy answers.
But women who stay with violent partners so that their children are injured or worse need jailing, they are allowing the perpetrator access to a child who cannot defend themselves.

sundaydayisnotmyfundayday · 05/01/2022 14:34

[quote Unsure33]@LakieLady

Ok perhaps you could understand that , but to know he was punching and dragging her other children around and having to shut them in a room for safety? Surely that would have triggered some kind of motherly response?[/quote]
this is where the small amount of sympathy I had for this woman diminished entirely. She was shown to be a bare faced liar by her (very brave) child

MorrisZapp · 05/01/2022 14:39

If I remember correctly Blairs government suggested very early intervention with the most at risk families, but was roundly accused of labelling and stigmatising the poor, and criminalising babies because of who their parents were.

Charmatt · 05/01/2022 14:41

This brought tears to my eyes. What an incredible lady. She doesn't sound less of a person for it to me x

Thank you - she is amazing, but she accepts she has emotional baggage from the abuse and she says this has diminished her potential to have the best life. That, she says has made her less of a person.

I agree with you - to me she is strong and resilient and she has high standards and expectations. Over the years I have seen instances when her shell is very fragile. We were once driving through town and my brother pointed out a drunken man who he said was being very silly (he was only young and didn't know he was drunk). My Mum became a bit flustered and told him not to look at him. She later told me it was her dad. Until they died, I think she felt that they could destroy the life she had built away from them.

I work in education and have attended child protection conferences and it really hits home that my Mum was in a similar position to some of the children we have discussed. The lack of money in the system is shocking and I have felt that several times children have been sent back into the bear pit unnecessarily.

mumshouse · 05/01/2022 14:41

Her other 3 children are with their lovely dad, he had absolutely no idea what was happening.

But how is it possible he had no idea?!

The only explanation I can think of is that he had zero involvement in his children's lives. (And presumably trotted out the old sob story of being kept away from them, while never actually starting the legal process.)

He'll be sainted locally I'm sure. But he had a responsibility as a parent to know what was going on with his children, and he failed.

MrsBerthaRochester · 05/01/2022 14:47

I havent watched the programme and dont think I will but I grew up with domestic violence. Nowhere near as extreme as what those poor children suffered.
My mum allowed her partner to hit us pretty much from when they started dating. We would be slapped,kicked,have heavy objects hurled at us. He later on also became sexually inappropriate with both myself and my sister.
When I tried to address this with my mum as an adult she blamed it on her having pnd.
I went on to be in an abusive marriage although that was mostly emotional and financisl although he did throttle me on three occasions.
Domestic violence is a very complex issue and even though I have had help from womens aid I still struggle with guilt.
I hope any future children she has are removed as I simply dont believe they could be kept safe in her care.

LakieLady · 05/01/2022 14:57

@Ecosaurus

How many adult criminals transpire to have grown up in, at best, chaotic, at worse violently abusive homes?

There's a huge link between Adverse Childhood Experiences and people ending up in prisons, sadly it's been ignored for a while - but there's lots of people speaking about it and fighting against it now to ensure better care is provided at the childhood level.

And is that "better care" adequately resourced?

Loads of children's centres in my county have closed, Sure Start has been massively cut and discretionary services in all areas are being cut to the bone (although we still pay the 2nd or 3rd highest council tax in the country).

Long term preventative work is expensive, and it takes a generation to show how effective it is.

daimbarsatemydogsbone · 05/01/2022 15:02

I would love to understand how Lucci ended up that way - simply because she is so far from anything I can understand that I find it hard to identify as the same species - but there has to be an explanation, and I'm not just going to dismiss her as "evil" - even though I cannot understand or imagine being like her. There has to be an explanation (not an excuse but an explanation) - and as others have said perhaps it lies in the way she's been treated over her entire life to date.

Sweetmayday · 05/01/2022 15:10

Didn't know anything about this until I saw this thread. I've watched it on catch up, that poor baby. To read what was done to him was horrendous. Can I ask why was did Kane need an appropriate adult?

Ecosaurus · 05/01/2022 15:16

Anyone with a mental health diagnosis or who is vulnerable (ie Lucci herself) should have an appropriate adult for interviews

ButYouGottaHaveASkillJeff · 05/01/2022 15:26

@Sweetmayday

Didn't know anything about this until I saw this thread. I've watched it on catch up, that poor baby. To read what was done to him was horrendous. Can I ask why was did Kane need an appropriate adult?

I think the Police probably asked for one to cover their backs down the line in case that psycho tried to pull a fast one leaving the interview invalidated. They probably saw how narcissistic and conniving he was.

Emerald5hamrock · 05/01/2022 15:35

She showed very little emotion in the interview with the details of Teddy's injuries, poker faced then extremely emotional when it came to arguments with her partner.
It's scary.
Thankfully the other DC are safe now.

GirlInACountrySong · 05/01/2022 15:36

@Ecosaurus

Anyone with a mental health diagnosis or who is vulnerable (ie Lucci herself) should have an appropriate adult for interviews
He 9kane0 had an appropriate adult during the interview where it was disclosed he wasn't the bio father

whys that? how old were this pair?

I feel he had some sort of additional needs

GirlInACountrySong · 05/01/2022 15:37

*(kane)

Malibuismysecrethome · 05/01/2022 15:37

I think for older children the fact that so many youth clubs and groups have been closed by local authorities and there in no funding or support, means that these children are far more vulnerable and have no escape from their abusive homes, even for a couple of hours.

There is the will to do this just not the resources in place. Children would also be educated as to what is acceptable in their homes as well.

Ecosaurus · 05/01/2022 15:38

I can’t remember if that was before he’d attempted though or afterwards; I’d afterwards he would have been classed as vulnerable.