To feel 0 sympathy-24 hours in police custody *MNHQ adding content warning for distressing information regarding a child*

[Menmy3]

AIBU to have absolutely no sympathy for poor baby Teddie’s useless mother. Going from one man to the next allowing one into her home that was clearly abusing her children and not protecting them. I know she was the victim of DV and usually I’d be advocating for her 100% but she showed no emotion, no remorse. Those poor babies.

Her new partner is selling Teddie's clothes and cot etc on Facebook selling pages. Screenshots on twitter.

@Thelnebriati

Women can be both victims of abuse, and enablers or actively abusive themselves. Being a victim of abuse doesnt automatically give someone any special empathy or insight into abuse, and I think we expect different standards of behaviour from women.

If we want women to leave we have to provide them with the means to do so, and at the moment we just dont. D.V. shelters are desperately underfunded, and many cities just dont have them at all - many are now mixed sex and dont take children.
There is no longer a benefits and housing safety net, thats been dismantled. Women can be expected to leave their entire lives, their home, their job.

I've often thought that there ought to be a one-off grant to help people get away from abusive partners.

They can't wait 5 weeks for their first UC payment, or afford to repay an advance payment from meagre benefits. They'll often need a loan for RIA/deposit to get housing, too, plus furniture, white goods, new school uniforms for the kids etc. I've known women leave with little more than the clothes on their and their children's backs, and a few pounds in their purse.

If I won the Euromillions I think I'd set up a charitable trust to do exactly that.

She didn't prioritise the needs of her own children above those needs of her relationship and her partner.
I have zero sympathy for her and I say that as a mother who fled domestic abuse with child protection services intervention, had I stayed - it would have led to this and I wouldn't expect anyone to have had any sympathy for me.
She deserved a custodial sentence not an insulting community order.
She is a disgrace and I hope for the worlds worth she doesn't go on to procreate again.

I left my ex when he grabbed my ds who was about 6 at the time. Obviously he had done it to me numerous times by this point.

But that makes it sound like it was easy. As soon as I stood up for ds, I got "why don't you ever back me up" - it was a new form of hell and a new form of "you don't trust/love/respect me and I'm going to teach you another lesson". "How dare you insinuate I am out of order" etc etc. Cue lots of anger, cue lots of fear.

I wish she had known better. She appeared very childlike.

However, withstanding all of that I do think she had a duty, however childlike she was, however abused she was, to protect those children. There is no way I wouldn't blame myself if I hadn't got out when I did and something similar had happened to my children. There was a way out, however horrific that way seemed at the time for her, and she will have to come to terms with that one day - she did play a part.

Yet when children from families like these grow up to offend themselves, the media headlines call them 'evil' and they get locked up

There was ZERO evidence of this from the documentary. Three children with one father, and then a fourth child with Teddy's father. At no point did it state that she had exposed her children to Teddy's father, or any other men other than their father and Kane.
The neighbours said she was seeing other men, not one other man before settling with beef head.

Reflecting on this, I’m hoping she got a community order because the judge decided the kids were better off with having their mother with them, after all the trauma they endured. I certainly hope she is getting guidance on avoiding abusive relationships and has been made to undergo courses to set her up with the skills needed. I agree she came across as deceptive and unempathetic, not likeable at all but those who deal with these cases need to make a tough judgement re best option overall.

@Queenie6655 May I DM you about a situation I am currently dealing with?

As an abuse survivor I agree with all that Ecosaurus has said. Especially this:

I actually don't think the Police where that great - some were, some were not. Some of the questioning from one of the police men was a bit chilling for me to watch. The fact that they only acted after a baby had died - the fact that Kane had no prior history on his records, and that the children also had no child protection notes on their records, despite multiple call outs and complaints just shows what an absolutely cluster fuck was made by all services, including the police.

@Emerald5hamrock seeing other men does not mean she was exposing her children to other men... There's quite a few posts on this thread that are anger-fuelled speculation with people jumping to create scenarios that simply were not in the programme.

It was not proven in court that she was aware what was happening - that is why some of the charges against her were dropped - whether i personally believe this or not - the posters coming on and saying she was aware etc. - this is totally at odds with what was proved and disproved in the court case.

The entire situations is so fucked up, posters don't need to attempt to make it even more fucked up.

@Royalbloo I am sorry you've experienced abuse.

Serious Case Reviews do not happen because agencies did their roles well - they happen because there have been serious failings.

The cynic in me thinks there's probably some ulterior motives why this case was used in the documentary series - it didn't need to be; at the end of the day the police would have had complete control on what footage was released and what wasn't - and how the story was aired. But yes, some of the police officers were great. It's interesting social services featured at no point during the entire two hour documentary... I find that very odd given the outcome.

So as an important women’s forum what would you suggest to the government to stop this constant “ learn lessons” from these cases ( I hate that statement)

Take DV seriously. Convictions for DV affecting other things e.g. jobs etc.

Training for all agencies - police, social workers, especially family court workers, schools, anyone who works with children or families - on DV. Relationships education in schools covering abuse, how to spot, how to leave/get help. How to spot if you yourself are an abuser and where to get help. Funded programmes to help young people who feel they may be acting abusively.

Fund social work properly so social workers can do their jobs and don't have impossible caseloads and the good ones don't immediately leave.

Fund CAMHS properly and adult mental health services properly.

Fund police properly and give them the resources to do their jobs properly.

Ensure there is adequate refuge protection and housing for vulnerable people. End homelessness. Address generational poverty in a non patronising way. Bring back sure start. Community centres for teenagers giving them places to be that doesn't spiral into petty crime, violence and drug addictions because of boredom. Access to adults who can guide them in constructive ways that they may not have at home.

I know it's a lot of "fund this fund that" but underfunding these services costs billions in the fallout not to mention the human cost. We could afford to pay those costs upfront to save them later. It's just not politically popular.

My SIL is like this. She's already had one baby removed. Some people just can't be helped. They're not wired correctly in the head - at all. It does make you wonder just how many sick individuals like this are out there :( and how many children are covering it up with a smile at school

Heartbreaking. That poor baby and the poor little boy. Both should be rotting in prison, and that baby she's carrying should be adopted. She should then be sterilised imo.

@Cliff1975

I am not defending the mother at all but it is very easy to judge without acknowledging the cause of such situations and until we do we will never improve things. Why is a woman willing to accept that treatment from a man and put his needs above her child's. I would like to bet that she has a long history of abuse from the men in her life. Until we put the right work in with victims of abuse early in their life, probably as children we will continue to create women who allow this to happen. The care system is broken and does not provide the right support for victims early on. The same is probably true for the father - he probably had abuse as a child too. Having said that the other thing we don't do is look at those who have had abuse as a child but overcome this to be a success and to be successful parents. We can learn a lot from these wonderful people. The difference is that they will probably have had someone in their lives who loved them and advocated for them.

I agree with this.

Having come into contact with people who have been through this abuse cycle, I think most people who haven't been caught up in it will struggle to comprehend just how different a world it is. It's normal to the people on the receiving end of this, it's deeply ingrained before they're even old enough to realise it, let alone do anything about it. It's all they've ever known - how would they know to behave differently? You might as well ask them to levitate then demand to know why they aren't doing it.

Throw in a desperate desire for the most basic of human emotions - love and companionship - and yes, they will go back to an abuser again and again and again. Because it's better than nothing. It's better than trying to deal with life alone. They've heard what they want to hear - that the abuser will change, that he loves them really, that it was actually their fault not their abuser's - and that's enough to send them back. They just want someone to care.

Both of the people I've known in these circumstances were the victims of abuse, one most horrendously so at the hands of her own parents who were physically as well as mentally abusive. I almost have to marvel at her ability to brush even the most severe problems off as 'nothing' - I guess it's a coping mechanism ingrained early and deeply. She has, for all the time I've known her, been almost completely oblivious to the most horrendous behaviour from her partners.

I am absolutely not excusing the behaviour, or saying that it should be punished (because it absolutely shoul) but all the time there is insufficient intervention - be that removing children from abuse cycles early enough, or ensuring that housing is available easily enough to those who want/need it to get away from an abusive partner, or social support for the vulnerable and damaged - it will happen again and again. And after it does there will be hand-wringing and opprobrium heaped down again and again because we desperately need to believe it could never happen to us or those around us.

And I'd add, it's not politically popular because there is a narrative going right back to Victorian times or further about the "deserving" vs "undeserving" poor. It serves a lot of politicians to have a scapegoat - the immigrants, the drug addicts, the poor, the uneducated, the "scroungers" - it stops people questioning policy if they have somebody to blame. So giving money to support these groups is not popular even though looking after these most marginalised groups would actually help alleviate a lot of problems within society.

I was abused (sexually) as a child from the age of 5 until the age of 12 when I got 'too old'. My entire maternal family chose to ignore it and side with the perpetrator. It lead to substance abuse, an eating disorder and very inappropriate relationships. I made some dodgy choices in my 20's, got pregnant from a fling, had a baby, sorted out my life and got a PGDip. I was flying with DS1, career wise, MH wise. Then I met exH, he started being coercively controlling about 6 weeks in, I got black eyes within a year. I married him. Why? Because my self esteem was fucked from my past. I had two more DC with him. Why? I wanted to rectify my lone parenting because people think single mothers are useless. I got very injured, broken bones. Left him and marital home with nothing. Used food banks. Lived in shitty rented. Slept on floors. Why? Because the family court system is a secondary trauma. Got an MSc and currently doing my PhD. Nearly 9 years on all 3 DC are thriving, happy and relatively unscathed as we got out early enough in their life I think, we are back to flying. 80K a year household as after years of staying away from men and trusting nobody, DP was my friend first and gently showed me how a normal relationship works for the first time ever. I am 42.

A PP asked what we can do to stop this cycle. I don't know much but what would have helped me from being little:
Take the abuse of women and girls more seriously. Do not see them as 'less' in society (in pay, in health, in careers, in education)
Look at why toxic people get together and why most people turn a blind eye. Unhealthy relationships involving children need to be challenged. Unhealthy relationship conflict is normalised, almost expected.
Pay people who are there to protect the most vulnerable (social workers, police, CAMHS, health workers) a decent wage so you attract people who can actaully challenge and have difficult conversations
Talk to people about patterns and family scripts and epigenetics

The only thing that got me through my shit start in life and through DV was my ability to read the crap about of everything, analyse things and gather information to inform my thinking. Why did I need to manage all that crap myself? Why have I had to absorb myself in research about DV, cPTSD, Parenting, Psychology, Systemic Family Therapy, restorative practice, safeguarding, Trauma Informed practice? Because there is nothing else there. There are very few services to deal with people with complex histories like my self. That's an active political choice. These things cost money and people don't want to pay for other people to get the support they need as they see us as not worth it, but then wring their hands when babies and children die. Does that have meaning?

There are very few services to deal with people with complex histories like my self. That's an active political choice.

Agree - this is where change will start. And by ensuring those who work in those services have adequate support to do so so that they avoid burn out.

No sympathy. She put her children at risk knowing he was abusive.

At first I thought about whether she was in shock but the more I watched the more I just saw a cold heartless woman. When the police came to arrest Kane I am sure she said she'd been putting on her fake tan and that's what the marks around her neck were. Her baby has just been murdered and she's more concerned about fake tanning.

Louise Casey did try it with the Troubled Families scheme around 2012.

It didn't have much success. They tried the whole early intervention, inter-generational family issues etc.

My recollection isn't great on it, but I think they pulled it too quick. Expected it to work in a few years when in reality it needed decades and millions of investment. That is the problem that it is really VERY costly to tackle these families. It is basically intensive therapy for everyone for decades.

@Zippea

The only true emotion I saw from Kane was in his anger. His crying etc looked like a poor attempt at a GCSE drama exercise. Her? I can’t work out at all.

I wondered if she had perhaps been abused as a child herself, or lived in a household where DV took place. She seemed so inured to being abused by him, that it was almost as though she was a bit "shut down" or something.

I wonder if women like Lucy are brought up in violent households and, for some reason, think it's normal. They go from one loser man to the next and don't have the self worth to realise that they can do better. And what can the authorities do to help women who don't show any desire to be helped?
Lucy, a victim herself, yet she sat back and did nothing to stop the abuse of all her kids and the murder of one of them. I really do think she deserved a jail sentence.

Am just watching the second part and am thoroughly enjoying the fact that he is whining about his self inflicted injuries. Having seen the second part, I do feel that her sentence should be reviewed. It is hard to have sympathy or understanding towards her as her behaviour is so far removed from how any normal mother would behave. She is undoubtedly a victim of domestic violence, but that doesn't let her off the hook. I found it telling how they both only appeared genuinely upset when it came to the DNA results. Their relationship was much more important than her children. No doubt she'll meet someone else just as bad and be pregnant within weeks.

@BertieBotts

I agree . So we have to pay more council tax or tax as it is us that have to fund this . Or what about separate funding for all these agencies in a special child/family protection programme .

And how do you safely get those women out that want to get out quickly ?

Not that it would have helped in this case as she had no intention of reporting or leaving him.

@LakieLady

Ok perhaps you could understand that , but to know he was punching and dragging her other children around and having to shut them in a room for safety? Surely that would have triggered some kind of motherly response?

@Blinky21

Yet when children from families like these grow up to offend themselves, the media headlines call them 'evil' and they get locked up

That's so true. We learn so many of our behaviours from our parents or parent figures in our early years.

If they don't show us love and respect, and self-respect, they're hard things to learn in adulthood.

Meanwhile, child mental health is as appallingly under-resourced as any other part of the NHS. More intervention when children have been exposed to abuse might well pay dividends later on. Even when children have been diagnosed with PTSD from witnessing violence in the home, there seems to be very little help for them.