Men who refuse to marry the mothers of their children

[SparrowNest]

You see that so often on here. I don’t mean couples where both parties are happy to marry, but ones where the man refuses despite their partner desperately wanting it, or else strings them along indefinitely.

Is there any reason at all, other than that he doesn’t want to have any duty to provide her with financial security for if they break up? So not only is he already thinking about potentially leaving, he’s happy to fuck over the person he ostensibly currently loves if they do break up.

My AIBU is that I don’t understand why women tolerate it. I suppose the ones being strung along have just been lied to, but having children is actually the bigger commitment in many ways. You’re joined for life. It seems so nasty to be prepared to do that, but not offer your partner the security and commitment they want.

I think a lot of men are still holding out for something better... and like stringing the woman along.

Early in our relationship I told DH that after a few years in a relationship I’d be looking to get married. And definitely before kids were on the way. I would move on if that wasn’t for the man I was with.

DH proposed after 3 years of dating. He said he wasn’t massively fussed about marriage, but he knew it was important to me, and he wanted to be with me for the rest of his life.

I have been married & now divorced & have no desire to remarry
My partner (m) frequently asks me to marry him & I frequently refuse: we are both financially stable and do not need a piece of paper to feel secure & committed in our relationship
It's seems to me, very odd that this post is aimed at men who refuse marriage, when it's equally a right for the woman to refuse .

@Blossom64265

I am perplexed by this as well. Obviously caveating the discussion to only include women who do believe in marriage, I don’t understand why so many women have decided to agree to take the huge risk of having children without getting married first. It’s not like women don’t have any power. They could simply decline to become mothers without marriage. I am sure someone will come along to point out that weddings are expensive, but expensive weddings are not required for a marriage to take place. If a couple wants to move on to other phases like buying a home and having children, they may just need to skip the big party.

It’s frustrating seeing these women acting like they are passive passengers to a life that is just happening to them. It feels like the feminist lessons we learned from the previous generations have been misunderstood and mistranslated by the generation coming up and they have re-combined the various messages into the worst possible setup for women.

100% this. Excellent post. ^

YABU if only because a couple should ideally (barring unplanned pregnancy) be on the same page regarding marriage before committing to children.

DH and I had a home, joint mortgage etc. before marriage BUT we were earning similar, had similar earning potential and both had sufficient to support a similar lifestyle if it all went tits up. Most importantly, though, we didn't have children.

I realise all relationships are different, but genuinely can't fathom how people end up having planned children with someone with whom they can't have an open & honest conversation about life plans.

To the women on here (smugly) telling us how they got married before children and asking why don't we all do the same: I'll bet all of you were actually asked by your husband to get married before you seriously wanted to have a baby with him.

A lot of couples move in together once they have been dating a while. Convention dictates that the women has to be passive about marriage and wait and wait some more to be asked while her eggs get older. The proposal appears to be the man committing himself to the woman, rather than a mutual decision.

However, having a baby together is usually a mutual decision, so it's deemed acceptable for the woman to broach the subject and persuade the man. It seems to me that it's easier to get his DNA than a proposal.

We need to change our daughters' mindset: You can discuss marriage and insist upon if if you are a woman. Do not wait for him like a book on a shelf. You are a valuable, smart and talented person. If he's not thrilled at the thought of having you forever, dump his ass. Do not idealise big proposals, expensive engagement rings or fancy weddings that let a man put off the proposal while he waits for the right time or saves the money.

Yes of course, mathanxiety a will can be changed. But if made in good faith it mitigates some of the financial risks with death, for the duration of the relationship.

I'm in my late 50s and so are most of my friends. In my close friendship circle (let's say I'm friends with 20 couples) I know 3 who are not married but have been with their partners for 20 or 30 years. They are all the lower earners and they all did the majority of childcare or organising of the childcare when their kids were little.

My brother (now aged 71) has never married and never wanted children. He was never a high earner nor did he have 'assets' to protect. For him it was simply because he didn't want to surrender his freedom and the ability to make his decisions on his own. But he was always 100% honest about it with any woman he was involved with. He lived with a few women over the years and most of the relationships ended when the woman started pushing for marriage, either he ended it or she did.

I think the loss of freedom is what stops a lot of men and women from marrying. They might 'commit' and it may even last a lifetime, but they always want the 'open crack in the front door' that not being married gives. Marriage means that door is shut, not locked, but it's not as easy to get outside. I think that's the main reason people don't want to marry, much more than trying to protect assets or finances.

To the women on here (smugly) telling us how they got married before children and asking why don't we all do the same: I'll bet all of you were actually asked by your husband to get married before you seriously wanted to have a baby with him.

When I bought my first house with (now ex) h, I refused to move in unless we were getting married and had actually set a date. There wasn't a proposal. He got me a rung, I got him a chain. We then didn't start ttc until after the wedding.

If I had got pregnant by accident, I would have insisted in having a smaller wedding and bringing it forward.

I think you are right about what we need to teach our dds and I have endeavoured ro do the same with both mine (a boy and a girl).

Marriage is a non-subject to DP. I’ve never really understood why but it doesn’t bother me enormously. He has two DC with his ex and gave/ gives her money far in excess of what she would have gotten had they been married and divorced, so it can’t be for financial reasons. I think the permanency of it scares him.

‘We need to change our daughters' mindset’

Parents can’t easily change our DCs’ thoughts! And surely, if going down that dodgy road as a parent, since more women want marriage than men, it’s sons who merit attention?

Men have longer to have DC, and don’t face financial penalties upon becoming fathers. Many men are insufficiently considerate of their partners’ position and interests vs their own. For example, staying in a relationship with a woman they don’t want marriage or DC with for a long time, having DC and encouraging their partner to go part time, whilst staying full time and seeking promotion.

Once you have children, it really isn't in the higher earner's interests to wed, in case of divorce. I am baffled by the women who want to get married but move in and/or have children and carry out all wifely duties without being married and yet are then distraught that the man has everything he wants so obviously has no need of a binding legal agreement.

Yet the reality of modern life for a professional woman, is that you should be able to earn as much as your partner. If you decide to have DC, they could be just sperm donors. Someone I know, who runs a huge care home for BUPA and is well paid, turfed out her partner because she, with a bit of everyday help from grandparents, can provide all the care needed, and she quickly got fed up with a needy man child who didn't/couldn't bring much to the party.

@Dozer

a will can be changed. But if made in good faith it mitigates some of the financial risks with death, for the duration of the relationship.

As @mathanxiety pointed out, a solution (like a will) which can be unilaterally changed is not comparable to a solution (like a marriage contract) which cannot be changed unilaterally

mobear far more likely he wanted
to keep his money and control how he spent it in the event of a break up. Including any increased income etc after becoming a father, facilitated by his ex doing more of the parenting and/or domestic work.

Agree that marriage is far better protection than a will! But break up is a far higher risk than death.

@AcrossthePond55

My brother (now aged 71) has never married and never wanted children. He was never a high earner nor did he have 'assets' to protect. For him it was simply because he didn't want to surrender his freedom and the ability to make his decisions on his own. But he was always 100% honest about it with any woman he was involved with. He lived with a few women over the years and most of the relationships ended when the woman started pushing for marriage, either he ended it or she did.

I think the loss of freedom is what stops a lot of men and women from marrying. They might 'commit' and it may even last a lifetime, but they always want the 'open crack in the front door' that not being married gives. Marriage means that door is shut, not locked, but it's not as easy to get outside. I think that's the main reason people don't want to marry, much more than trying to protect assets or finances.

This sounds like me. I don’t believe you can guarantee any relationship will last a lifetime even if you want it to in the present. Marriage does not make that guarantee - it just makes it harder to break up in a practical sense and means people without the money to divorce end up trapped in unhappy relationships especially if one of them, usually the woman, has given up or scaled back work for children.

I don’t think marriage as an institution is a positive thing in today’s world. I think it discourages women from chasing financial and personal independence. We should have more support for mothers on a societal level like free or cheaper childcare and workplace flexibility - marriage shouldn’t be seen as the safety blanket for that because in reality it often isn’t.

On a personal level, I own my flat and have worked hard for financial independence being from a poor background and I don’t want to jeopardise that by marrying. I also would rather leave a difficult relationship than “work at it” - if it becomes that much hard work then I’d rather save myself the trouble and be single. A relationship to me is a bonus addition to my life as it is, not something I need or want to compromise for. I don’t want to stop being an individual in an emotional, financial or practical sense, and the idea of marriage makes me feel suffocated. I’m upfront about this with anyone I date, though. I’d never pretend I wanted something I didn’t.

I realise all relationships are different, but genuinely can't fathom how people end up having planned children with someone with whom they can't have an open & honest conversation about life plans.

This all over. Bringing a human into the world is far more life changing (for everyone!) than marriage and yet people seem to create life with a massive devil may care attitude and worry about everything else afterwards.

marriage. It’s not just a protection for the women though is it. It can be detrimental too if you are a
Higher earner. Your DH goes off the rails etc. Decides to give up work. Doesn’t want to earn money support you. Spends all the family money.

Well, DH never proposed in the classical way. We had been in a LDR for a long time , and I told him that either we're getting married (and therefore we got to live together, as we were living in 2 different countries at the time and we were both spending A LOT of money visiting each other) or we split up. He agreed, we set a date and we got married. The children came a few years after that. We both earn more or less the same amount of money now, actually for a while he earned more than me, then I earned more than him, now he's caught up with me, we'll see what the future will bring.

I’m 100% convinced that he is well aware of her rights if they split and he’s a tight mean bastard who would be happy to screw his DP and child over

@DesdemonaDryEyes

I can never understand why folk make such a big deal about proposals and weddings when they already share children and a house.

Because of how much unmarried women will be screwed over if the couple split

@mobear, that would have been a final cut off in my book. I don't think I could ever have entered a life time relationship with anyone who was prepared to walk away from their parental responsibilities. Sexual excitement is lovely to start with, but marriage and procreation is a long haul.

A lot of couples move in together once they have been dating a while. Convention dictates that the women has to be passive about marriage and wait and wait some more to be asked

Stuff ‘convention’. The smart thing to do is to tell the man that you won’t be living with anybody unless you are married to them. How has it become ‘convention’ that the man gets to try out potential wives on a sale or return basis? Sod that!

@LondonQueen

There's more to life than being married, if I divorced DH I certainly wouldn't get remarried, however I also wouldn't change my name as I would want the same name as my DC.

I am divorced, and nothing would persuade me to remarry. Fortunately our DC have my name, which I never changed. This option is also available, though so many women seem to forget it.