Men who refuse to marry the mothers of their children

[SparrowNest]

You see that so often on here. I don’t mean couples where both parties are happy to marry, but ones where the man refuses despite their partner desperately wanting it, or else strings them along indefinitely.

Is there any reason at all, other than that he doesn’t want to have any duty to provide her with financial security for if they break up? So not only is he already thinking about potentially leaving, he’s happy to fuck over the person he ostensibly currently loves if they do break up.

My AIBU is that I don’t understand why women tolerate it. I suppose the ones being strung along have just been lied to, but having children is actually the bigger commitment in many ways. You’re joined for life. It seems so nasty to be prepared to do that, but not offer your partner the security and commitment they want.

@MalagaNights

We need to be saying loudly and clearly to young women if you want to be married then make it clear to partners you will not have children until married. Non negotaible.

We've sold young women a lie with the laissez faire it's fine to live together, have a baby and then get married attitude which seems to be prevailing, and it's leaving too many mothers very vulnerable and unhappy.

This is made even harder on young women as men are commiting later and later and the biological clock for women is ticking, which is why I think they have the babies before the men will commit.
Which I understand, becoming a mother is very important to most women.

Feminism has put young women in a bind where they are leaving motherhood late, cannot delay it any longer, alongside everyone living longer and men reaching maturity and readiness for commitment later.

Our biological clocks really work against the modern set up they are sold at the moment.

As an older women I'm having these converstaions as much as I can with younger women who want marriage and children: they need to take agency, use the negotiating power they have (men do want children) to place themselves in strong positions.

No children without marriage.
From 25 years onwards make your position on this clear and don't waste time if he's not on board with this.

Value yourself, what you have to offer a man, and if he doesn't value it move on.

If more women did this the dating 'marketplace' would shift, and women would hold more power within it.

Contrary to a previous opinion, I think you’ve nailed it @MalagaNights. I can see that it would make some people feel very uncomfortable though.

The way that often manifests itself of course is in men expecting family stuff (childcare/cooking/cleaning/life admin/school admin) to just magically get done by women
Threads like this really show what cultural divides there are. The above is absolutely nothing I've experienced. All 4 of my grandparents work and even then, my grandfathers did housework and were much involved with their children. Same with my parents, and what I experienced with my ex and his parents, my current partner and his family, my friends, colleagues etc...

I also find it interesting that when mentioning household tasks on mn, DIY, repairs, gardening, etc...is never mentioned, despite being tasks more traditional taken on by men.

@Crazykatie

How many men actually want children?, or do they just accept that the woman wants children, in a great many cases men don’t take much part in child care. Personally I don’t think most men are bothered much with children, they do what is needed to keep the woman happy, most of the time.

I agree and am yet to meet a man who decided he wanted a baby in his relationship to make it that bit better. Most see them as ruining it, less sex, less freedom, less money, less fun, less partner. A lot will bond with the child once it's here and older and interesting, but very few actively want them.

@vivainsomnia

I'm not saying that this is what all the men in my life expect. And I wouldn't tolerate this.

But you'd have to have been living under a rock not to have noticed that there are some men who expect this.

Do you really believe a relationship isn't committed if there's no marriage?

The PP said specifically her son shouldn't marry unless there is 100% commitment. I believe the same goes with kids. If a guy wants kids but insists on not marrying - bin him.

@vivainsomnia

The way that often manifests itself of course is in men expecting family stuff (childcare/cooking/cleaning/life admin/school admin) to just magically get done by women Threads like this really show what cultural divides there are. The above is absolutely nothing I've experienced. All 4 of my grandparents work and even then, my grandfathers did housework and were much involved with their children. Same with my parents, and what I experienced with my ex and his parents, my current partner and his family, my friends, colleagues etc...

I also find it interesting that when mentioning household tasks on mn, DIY, repairs, gardening, etc...is never mentioned, despite being tasks more traditional taken on by men.

Plenty of women garden, including on here.

DIY etc is more of a "one off" with a visible, permanent result. Making dinner, cleaning the bathroom etc is "invisible work" that you often don't notice until it doesn't get done. It's domestic everyday drudgery.

My father would never lift a finger for said drudgery, but when he fitted a doorbell and some coving, we never stopped hearing about it.

I also find it interesting that when mentioning household tasks on mn, DIY, repairs, gardening, etc...is never mentioned, despite being tasks more traditional taken on by men.

Oh I see it all the time. 'Well yes I do all the cooking cleaning laundry admin and childcare, but DH is really good, he changed a light bulb last year and once put an IKEA Malm together, so I can't complain really..'

But you'd have to have been living under a rock not to have noticed that there are some men who expect this
I totally agree with SOME men, but this thread would like everyone to believe that those who are not are rare.

The PP said specifically her son shouldn't marry unless there is 100% commitment. I believe the same goes with kids. If a guy wants kids but insists on not marrying - bin him
I believe the same goes with kids too but you don't have to be married to be 100% committed to your children.

My dd wants kids, commitment but not marriage. Not all young women aspire for marriage.

DIY etc is more of a "one off" with a visible, permanent result. Making dinner, cleaning the bathroom etc is "invisible work" that you often don't notice until it doesn't get done. It's domestic everyday drudgery
It really depends on the house. My oh is always busy with some DIY and maintenance of the garden but he also cooks and cleans.

I also find it interesting that when mentioning household tasks on mn, DIY, repairs, gardening, etc...is never mentioned, despite being tasks more traditional taken on by men.

How often DYI repairs need to get done? Its a very occasional task, and actually few men are capable, usually you need to hire someone.
Childcare, housework is daily and non-negotiable.

Childcare, housework is daily and non-negotiable
And most women who work ft share it with their oh.

Those who work ft and do it all are the ones who really need to have a talk with their oh.

@vivainsomnia

Childcare, housework is daily and non-negotiable And most women who work ft share it with their oh.

Those who work ft and do it all are the ones who really need to have a talk with their oh.

The point is, there's a lot of them.

Far more than there are men working full time and doing it all at home.

*We need to be saying loudly and clearly to young women if you want to be married then make it clear to partners you will not have children until married. Non negotaible.

We've sold young women a lie with the laissez faire it's fine to live together, have a baby andthenget married attitude which seems to be prevailing, and it's leaving too many mothers very vulnerable and unhappy.

This is made even harder on young women as men are commiting later and later and the biological clock for women is ticking, which is why I think they have the babies before the men will commit.
Which I understand, becoming a mother is very important to most women.

Feminism has put young women in a bind where they are leaving motherhood late, cannot delay it any longer, alongside everyone living longer and men reaching maturity and readiness for commitment later.

Our biological clocks really work against the modern set up they are sold at the moment.

As an older women I'm having these converstaions as much as I can with younger women who want marriage and children: they need to take agency, use the negotiating power they have (men do want children) to place themselves in strong positions.

No children without marriage.
From 25 years onwards make your position on this clear and don't waste time if he's not on board with this.

Value yourself, what you have to offer a man, and if he doesn't value it move on.

If more women did this the dating 'marketplace' would shift, and women would hold more power within it*

I say this as someone who despite reasonable intelligence fell hook, line and sinker for the "only a bit of paper" argument. I would go further and not live with a partner before they at least committed to an intention to marry and ideally a date. As stated above most men don't like living alone..

MalagaNights You are right.

What we need to teach young women is the value and the importance of being self-supporting. That even if your 'goal' is to be a SAHP, you still need to have some skill that would enable you to earn a living, be it as a supermarket checker or a brain surgeon. A woman may not want to work, but she should be able to if need arises.

When I was a girl my parents always impressed on me the need to get some sort of skill or qualification that would allow me to support myself, and if need be my family. My auntie (Mum's sister) also stressed this with her daughter. My mum was a housewife, but she was also a trained bookkeeper. Auntie was a housewife, but also a licensed teacher. Neither of them worked when we were little, but both had a skill that allowed them to re-enter the workplace once we were grown.

Both of them felt that 'you never know'. Not that their husbands would leave them, but that life can take drastic turns and you must be able to cope with them. It's not just that a woman will be left penniless by some total shit. It's also what may happen if their OH becomes disabled, loses their job, or dies. Getting a job at a living wage isn't easy these days, but without some type of skill it's impossible.

Both my cousin and I did get career skills. I kept working after the children arrived and DH and I retired in our 50s. My cousin stopped to be a SAHM but kept her license current. It's a good thing she did because her exH left her for OW. She re-entered the workplace after the divorce was finalized at a good wage. She retired at 60.

We as women need to take care of ourselves. Or at least, be prepared to.

We as women need to take care of ourselves. Or at least, be prepared to.

I could not agree more!

We as women need to take care of ourselves. Or at least, be prepared to.

Yes, but don't let men off the hook that easily. Don't willingly have kids with dudes who are scared of "the paper".

@CatsArePeople

Do you really believe a relationship isn't committed if there's no marriage?

The PP said specifically her son shouldn't marry unless there is 100% commitment. I believe the same goes with kids. If a guy wants kids but insists on not marrying - bin him.

Why would anyone marry if there isn't 100% commitment?

That doesn't mean not getting married is any less committed.

It should never be a case of 'marriage is the only right way'. Wether its rare or not, some women would be screwed.

And people can be very committed without marriage.

That doesn't mean not getting married is any less committed.

Of course it's less committed. Doesn't mean it's always wrong not to do it, but it's a level of commitment above not doing it. It's a legal commitment, a contract. It must mean something if people refuse to do it.

Firstly your assuming it's men thar don't want to get married??? Secondly, not everyone wants to marry amd that is OK. Get over yourself!

Oh dear. Did you read the OP, or any of the thread?

“ For many men, their only real, complete confidante and emotional support is their female partner. They're just not good at being alone.”

I would say that for “some” men that is true, men are very often macho and do not confide in their partner, less likely to be emotionally dependant, more likely to hide a illness, or a work problem.

@CatsArePeople

We as women need to take care of ourselves. Or at least, be prepared to.

Yes, but don't let men off the hook that easily. Don't willingly have kids with dudes who are scared of "the paper".

I guess my feeling is that if I am self supporting, who cares if a man is 'scared of the paper'? The reason for the piece of paper is to ensure that a 'non-earner' (be it male or female) is not put at a financial disadvantage, that they have some legal protection if the other person (be it male or female) decides to up sticks and leave. Obviously, these days it's much more likely to be the female who is dependent, but the world keeps spinning and things keep changing. SAHF are rarer, but they are 'there'.

The protection for children isn't dependent on marriage, child support/maintenance is a child's right regardless of marital status. And if a person is going to be an absentee parent and not pay it, then the fact that the parents were married doesn't mean shit.

It's not letting men 'off the hook', it's putting oneself on an equal footing with them. You don't want to marry me? Who cares? I can take care of myself AND maintain separate finances and assets. In fact, it may actually be an incentive for a man to marry a woman if he knows she's willing and able to walk away at any time, especially if she's a good earner with assets of her own. It also may be a good incentive for a man to carry his share of the household duties if he knows that if he doesn't his partner (or wife) could decide he's just not worth the extra work.

If a woman has some driving need to be a 'Mrs' because she thinks it's some sort of status symbol, then I think she needs to realize she's not living in the '50s. There is no such thing as an 'old maid' anymore. A woman's 'worth' is no longer determined by whether or not some man wanted to marry her as it was in our mother's and grandmother's days!

I'm speaking as a woman in her 60s, who has been happily married for over 35 years. We married because we both wanted to and wanted to be married before children came along. And we both kept working after the children came. All marriages hit a 'rocky patch' at one time or another, and when we hit ours it was a secure feeling for me to know that the DC and I would have been just fine if DH and I hadn't been able to reach a 'meeting of the minds'. And I expect that fact might have been in the back of his mind, too! So we entered our 'rocky patch' as equals, not with one in fear of loss of financial security or the other with a feeling of 'power' because they held all the financial cards.

@Crazykatie

“ For many men, their only real, complete confidante and emotional support is their female partner. They're just not good at being alone.”

I would say that for “some” men that is true, men are very often macho and do not confide in their partner, less likely to be emotionally dependant, more likely to hide a illness, or a work problem.

In my experience, it's true far more often than it isn't.

@DrSbaitso

That doesn't mean not getting married is any less committed.

Of course it's less committed. Doesn't mean it's always wrong not to do it, but it's a level of commitment above not doing it. It's a legal commitment, a contract. It must mean something if people refuse to do it.

That would be the case if relationships only rely on legal commitment. I am not talking in only a legal sense.

You can be committed to a person without being legally committed.

The coment I quoted suggested that marriage was the only way a relationship can be a committed one. That's not the case.

I am in a committed relationship without being married. Being married would leave me and my children financially vulnerable. There's no need for a legal commitment.

I sought legal and financial advice.

I have also been married and can assure you my dp is far committed than my husband of 15 years ever was.