Men who refuse to marry the mothers of their children

[SparrowNest]

You see that so often on here. I don’t mean couples where both parties are happy to marry, but ones where the man refuses despite their partner desperately wanting it, or else strings them along indefinitely.

Is there any reason at all, other than that he doesn’t want to have any duty to provide her with financial security for if they break up? So not only is he already thinking about potentially leaving, he’s happy to fuck over the person he ostensibly currently loves if they do break up.

My AIBU is that I don’t understand why women tolerate it. I suppose the ones being strung along have just been lied to, but having children is actually the bigger commitment in many ways. You’re joined for life. It seems so nasty to be prepared to do that, but not offer your partner the security and commitment they want.

@ComtesseDeSpair

I think I must live in the same "bubble" which is women who have worked during their 20s, bought a home, started savings and pensions, had children in their 30s and crucially, not given up work to be a SAHP.

[quote LittleRoundRobin]@FanGirlX

And this is why I'm so happy I didn't marry ex DP, even though he is DD's father. DD and I get to keep my house, salary, savings and pension.

Bully for you.

However, Many women don't have the luxury of already having their own house, and a sturdy pension, along with 'savings,' and a good salary - and especially when they have children. You are the exception rather than the rule.[/quote]
Feminism in action there.

I planned for mine and DDs future, before I chose to have her. Why do you have an issue with that?

@MalagaNights

We need to be saying loudly and clearly to young women if you want to be married then make it clear to partners you will not have children until married. Non negotaible.

We've sold young women a lie with the laissez faire it's fine to live together, have a baby and then get married attitude which seems to be prevailing, and it's leaving too many mothers very vulnerable and unhappy.

This is made even harder on young women as men are commiting later and later and the biological clock for women is ticking, which is why I think they have the babies before the men will commit.
Which I understand, becoming a mother is very important to most women.

Feminism has put young women in a bind where they are leaving motherhood late, cannot delay it any longer, alongside everyone living longer and men reaching maturity and readiness for commitment later.

Our biological clocks really work against the modern set up they are sold at the moment.

As an older women I'm having these converstaions as much as I can with younger women who want marriage and children: they need to take agency, use the negotiating power they have (men do want children) to place themselves in strong positions.

No children without marriage.
From 25 years onwards make your position on this clear and don't waste time if he's not on board with this.

Value yourself, what you have to offer a man, and if he doesn't value it move on.

If more women did this the dating 'marketplace' would shift, and women would hold more power within it.

That post is full of mistruths, misperceptions and failures of logic and reasoning. It deserves some kind of stupidity prize.

If I was to marry the father of my DC, I would be worse off if we divorced than if we stay as we are. We have a joint mortgage and each will get the house if the other dies first, and have named each other as pension beneficiaries. That's sensible and is a financial commitment to each other.

We split parental leave and we split child rearing and domestic work 50/50. We pay into the home coffers according to our income (mine is and always has been more).

The above I describe negates the advantages of marriage, because we are equals and each contributes according to our means and abilities. I think this is a better recipe for equality than insisting on marriage for all.

@CinnamonJellyBeans

To the women on here (smugly) telling us how they got married before children and asking why don't we all do the same: I'll bet all of you were actually asked by your husband to get married before you seriously wanted to have a baby with him.

A lot of couples move in together once they have been dating a while. Convention dictates that the women has to be passive about marriage and wait and wait some more to be asked while her eggs get older. The proposal appears to be the man committing himself to the woman, rather than a mutual decision.

However, having a baby together is usually a mutual decision, so it's deemed acceptable for the woman to broach the subject and persuade the man. It seems to me that it's easier to get his DNA than a proposal.

We need to change our daughters' mindset: You can discuss marriage and insist upon if if you are a woman. Do not wait for him like a book on a shelf. You are a valuable, smart and talented person. If he's not thrilled at the thought of having you forever, dump his ass. Do not idealise big proposals, expensive engagement rings or fancy weddings that let a man put off the proposal while he waits for the right time or saves the money.

@CinnamonJellyBeans Very well put. I proposed to my DH. But I am the only women to have done so out of my friend groups. We need a paradigm shift. That for some reason feminism has not brought about.

@StoneofDestiny

Women don't have to have children with men before they commit to marriage. Their choice, it's not inflicted upon them.

Trust is the problem. Women trust too much.

@mathanxiety I agree with most of what you've said. I'm using feminism in a very broad sense to refer to the modern circumstances of high education, career and late motherhood you describe, and the unresolved issues women are faced with as a consequence.

Although statistically it is likely to be younger less educated women who not getting married. And those who feel the lack of protection it brings even more.
I've seen this described as the result of 'luxury beliefs' they're told marriage is just a piece of paper if he loves you. Which educated women think in their 20s, but don't have kids and in their 30s realise marriage has all sorts of benefits.
So they get married later, at a higher rate, and younger less educated women are suffering the consequences of the romantic lies they were sold.

I do think women have been sold a lie and they need to wake up to the reality of fertility windows and the vulnerability inherent in pregnancy and child care roles.

Women need to make good informed decisions for themselves. And not pretend lack of legal commitment when you (for most women) become vulnerable, is not a problem.

@AlfonsoTheGoat 🤣🤣 how well argued.
You've convinced me I'm stupid 🤣🤣.

I was very glad I was married when my husband died. Because it meant I was the person the police came to, I got to make all the funeral decisions. I've see so many young women who lost partners be utterly frozen out of everything, every decision, even with kids etc. We'd named each other as beneficiaries when we moved in together so it wasn't about the money but it certainly made the whole sadmin process easier with a wedding certificate. I married for love and nothing else at 29 but widowed at 34 meant it was also a very sensible decision. However, I will never remarry. My house, my money, my pension. I can see why people choose not too. I also very much love my 'Chapter 2' as is the usual term. But I won't lose the pension my LH wanted me to have for him.

@ComtesseDeSpair
I’d assume that most people partner with people similar to themselves, so can’t see why men and women in relationships would have such disparate backgrounds and jobs that the man would have everything and the woman nothing when they met.

You don't need disparate jobs or backgrounds to end up with a huge imbalance in power and potential. A man who works the checkout in a filling station still has more financial power and more options for future jobs than his female partner, if she, for example, takes time off her own part-time filling station job to take care of babies for a year or two or more.

Depending on how unequally domestic and caretaking roles are apportioned, or the availability of the hours she needs in order to make sharing the family load possible, her chance of getting a job afterwards and keeping at it may be ruined.

Why would a woman having her own home, good salary, pension and savings prior to marriage and children be an exception rather than a rule?

You are overlooking the millions of people who live hand to mouth, rent their humble abodes, get paid by the hour, have no pensions apart from state entitlements, and they have zero in savings because everything is more expensive when you're poor.

If you are not aware of the reality of life for millions of other people then you live in a bubble.

As an older women I'm having these converstaions as much as I can with younger women who want marriage and children: they need to take agency, use the negotiating power they have (men do want children) to place themselves in strong positions
You mean approach marriage and the relationship behind it like a business venture? And then if it fails, ditch it, get what you can from it and start another one?

This is exactly what I'm warning my son about. My dd has made it clear she will never marry. She is independent, on an excellent career path and don't need supporting. She will work and have kids.

I have told my ds that he should only marry if he is 100% certain he is fully committed and so is she, and they have already discussed at length their plans for the future, and they are totally in agreement. Ideally marry a woman who is independent, enjoy working and is prepared to approach the marriage in an equal footing where they both take on roles of financial provider and provider to the kids and home.

I think if a woman wants to get married they should just get it done before having dc.
That way they know if a man wants this too or not before they're committed in other ways. It's easy to sell a house if you find out later down the line a man doesn't want to get married. A lot easier situation to move on from than having dc and I never know why women do this if they want to get married. Marriage should always be a choice not one someone is coerced or feels obliged to happen.

Women have the sole power to decide whether to keep the child or have an abortion. I don't have much sympathy for women who end up in the plight the OP describes because they had the power to decide not to fall into this trap. I agree with the OP that it's hard to understand why any woman would make this mistake, given how much evidence there is of it happening time and time again, always with bad outcomes.

I don't like the argument that women are "tricked" or "manipulated" into thinking the man will stick with them forever if he can't be arsed to marry them. I think that's quite an offensive argument, misogynistic even, it suggests that women are inherently stupid and are easily controlled by the most pathetic of men.

How many men actually want children?, or do they just accept that the woman wants children, in a great many cases men don’t take much part in child care.
Personally I don’t think most men are bothered much with children, they do what is needed to keep the woman happy, most of the time.

No, most men want children. They may not want to be primary caregivers, but they want their genes passed on.

Hence the phenomenon of the pusillanimous twat who coasts along with the woman he doesn't really love, claiming marriage is just a piece of paper and he doesn't want kids...and as soon as she ages out of her window and he actually realises that to stay with her really does mean no kids, he ditches her and finds a younger woman for marriage and children.

Men can seem more careless about it because they don't have the same window that women have, but most of them want children.

Also, for all the ideas that women are incomplete without a man and defined by their relationships, I've found that men are really, really bad at being alone. Not many can do it. That's why they're content to coast in relationships. I also think it's one reason why there's always been an avalanche of porn of all grades, wherever the medium is. It's partly horniness, and depending on the context it could be misogynistic disrespect, but I truly think a lot of it is down to men simply craving female company and not doing well without it. For many men, their only real, complete confidante and emotional support is their female partner. They're just not good at being alone.

@ComtesseDeSpair

Why would a woman having her own home, good salary, pension and savings prior to marriage and children be an exception rather than a rule?

@mathanxiety

You are overlooking the millions of people who live hand to mouth, rent their humble abodes, get paid by the hour, have no pensions apart from state entitlements, and they have zero in savings because everything is more expensive when you're poor.

If you are not aware of the reality of life for millions of other people then you live in a bubble.

This 100%.The ignorance and lack of awareness and narrow-mindedness, from a small bunch of posters on here is utterly breath-taking. So much privilege that they cannot see outside their own hugely over-privileged bubble.

I suppose they will come out with some shit like 'these poor folk shoulda worked harder and got a good education like me then.' That's one of the stock phrases from some yummy mummies and over privileged women on here.

The ignorance, lack of emotional intelligence, and sheer lack of compassion or understanding for anyone who is less fortunate than them makes me so angry that I rarely respond to their posts.

This is exactly what I'm warning my son about.

So you want your son to go on impregnating women with zero comittment? Nice one.

Its absolutely fine for anybody to decide they don't want to marry, for whatever reason.

Everybody needs to take responsibility for themselves as an individual, so if that means not having children with somebody until you're married in order to have adequate protection then that's what you do.

So you want your son to go on impregnating women with zero comittment? Nice one
Haha, yes, that's exactly what I want

What I want is him to commit to a woman who is interested in him as awhile person before what he can give her in marriage.

That marriage should be about love and complete commitment, and a two way street, not about being pressured because one person feels vulnerable without it.

As for children, the main consideration is when he is ready to love and provide 50% of the care, including the not fun part of it.

@LittleRoundRobin

This 100%.The ignorance and lack of awareness and narrow-mindedness, from a small bunch of posters on here is utterly breath-taking. So much privilege that they cannot see outside their own hugely over-privileged bubble.

There are some very privileged people on here and yes sometimes people have difficulty understanding that for women to be able to support themselves can be hard. There are a lot of people living hand to mouth for whom its almost impossible to plan financially.

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't aspire to it or teach our daughters to pursue it and it doesn't mean we should just give and and resign ourselves to being at the mercy of men. Your posts seem quite defeatist, as if anyone who is aspiring to financial independence is some Ivory Tower-inhabiting princess and not qualified to comment at all.

Financial independence doesn't need to mean having a trust fund or a huge salaried job in the City. It means having a job, even a poorly-paid job is better than nothing, some savings, a pension and some ability to support yourself if the worst should happen.

Every woman should have some means of supporting herself if the chips are down and every woman should teach their daughter this, rather than simply rushing to get married as early as possible. Marriage is a useful insurance policy but it should not be the sole financial gameplan for a woman.

I don't think you have to be super privileged to understand the importance of this.

@DrSbaitso

No, most men want children. They may not want to be primary caregivers, but they want their genes passed on.

Hence the phenomenon of the pusillanimous twat who coasts along with the woman he doesn't really love, claiming marriage is just a piece of paper and he doesn't want kids...and as soon as she ages out of her window and he actually realises that to stay with her really does mean no kids, he ditches her and finds a younger woman for marriage and children.

Men can seem more careless about it because they don't have the same window that women have, but most of them want children.

In the animal world passing on genes is the main driver for sex, humans are much more varied, probably pleasure, emotion and companionship are more important. In many species the male plays no part except impregnating the female

In the animal world passing on genes is the main driver for sex, humans are much more varied, probably pleasure, emotion and companionship are more important.

I agree, but I still maintain that most men want children even if they don't want to be primary caregivers or get married.

@CatsArePeople

This is exactly what I'm warning my son about.

So you want your son to go on impregnating women with zero comittment? Nice one.

Do you really believe a relationship isn't committed if there's no marriage?

There are a lot of people living hand to mouth for whom its almost impossible to plan financially.

Absolutely. But those people are not exclusively women. Young women are outperforming and out-earning young men nowadays. They should think carefully before deciding to throw in the towel and take a little part time job so they have time to also iron husband's socks.

@DrSbaitso

Also, for all the ideas that women are incomplete without a man and defined by their relationships, I've found that men are really, really bad at being alone. Not many can do it. That's why they're content to coast in relationships. I also think it's one reason why there's always been an avalanche of porn of all grades, wherever the medium is. It's partly horniness, and depending on the context it could be misogynistic disrespect, but I truly think a lot of it is down to men simply craving female company and not doing well without it. For many men, their only real, complete confidante and emotional support is their female partner. They're just not good at being alone.

Totally agree with this. And I think its more than being "horny" or wanting female company or a confidante: I think most men have some deeply ingrained view that women create the basic structure of the family and thus of society too. They feel instinctively that you need women to keep things ticking over and stop the world going a bit Lord of the Flies.

The way that often manifests itself of course is in men expecting family stuff (childcare/cooking/cleaning/life admin/school admin) to just magically get done by women.

If channeled properly this can lead to deep and fulfilling relationships between men and women and a proper appreciation of what women bring to the table. If not it just leads to men coasting while women do all the dog work.