Prince Andrew

[Tevion28]

Do you think guilty or innocent

Also Charles was seen walking with Andrew to church king king after this scandal broke. A public display of support. I think they either all believe he is innocent, or they stick together no matter what. If the former, they are woefully naive. If the latter, they don’t deserve to be figureheads in this country, being paid for by us.

There is an article in The Times today where a senior military figure has called for the Queen to remove his military titles because he's bringing shame to the regiments. The Queen, and only the Queen can remove those titles. The fact she doesn't speaks volumes. He has 9 honorary titles, but shows very little honour at all in keeping them. Why doesn't he give them up? I believe it's sheer arrogance.

Hahaha... you couldn't make it up. They've now got Jenny Bond on BBC news saying what a wonderful year it's going to be for the Royal Family with the Jubilee.

Total delusion

He doesn’t give them up because he doesn’t think he’s done anything wrong.

The Queen is not just any mother. She is supposed to be a figurehead to the nation. She is supposed to be the Head of the Church.

Agree.

I do sympathise with her on a human level.

However, she/Charles also need to take responsibility. The cover of respectability that Andrew gave to Epstein enabled abuse.

If being Royal is too difficult, yes she should support her son as a mother, but then the rest of the charade needs to end too.

"So unbelievably naive to presume that the Queen and the rest of the RF are horrified on a moral level."

I'd like to think that they are horrified about the girls being trafficked.

Of course they're not. If they were, why would the Queen award her son the highest medal for service after it became apparent he was involved? Those girls were far too low down the pecking order to engender horror or even sympathy.

If Maxwell can call them trash, which she did, and her being an upper class socialite, why would the RF be any different.....

He has 9 honorary titles, but shows very little honour at all in keeping them.

It’s awful. I can only assume that they haven’t done it yet because it might imply guilt?

People have died for those regiments. It is likely that all he will have to do is live quietly in comfort in old age.

I'd like to think that they are horrified about the girls being trafficked.

Well there's absolutely no evidence that's the case.

It didn't even occur to Andrew to express sympathy for the victims during his interview.

His family have indicated their support for him by being seen publicly with him since.

Of knowing that he was having sex with a girl coerced by others to have sex with him? Probably innocent - due to being too stupid, arrogant and entitled to imagine it was odd a 17 year old girl was hanging with his gang.

Of having sex with her? Guilty I’d imagine. But as far as I know she was 17, so she wasn’t under the age of consent.

Obviously given the age gap it was abusive, and anyone with half a brain would have realised that, but it’s the knowledge of trafficking that would get him - so I think he’ll walk away.

Plus the fact her lawyer was suggesting last week using Meghan Markle as a witness, on the grounds she was a close companion of Andrew, which doesn’t exactly inspire confidence in the quality of that legal team..

I'd like to think that they are horrified about the girls being trafficked.

Yeah, see, maybe some of them are on some level but I don’t really think so. They protect their own. To them, like to PA, VG is a slut who is accusing a wealthy famous man for money. The girls are from poor and working class backgrounds. The RF don’t even see people like that as human. JE’s activities were known a decade ago and none of the RF seemed to have any issue with PA until things got so bad that they couldn’t ignore it anymore for fear of damaging their brand.

In NY at the time, in VGs legal case, one of the places she supposedly had sex with PA, that was illegal. The NY age laws are different to ours.

Agree with all the posts about the Queen being seen to endorse this inappropriate behaviour - being friends w Epstein after conviction, pics with VG, the VG allegations. Harry and Meghan were cut off for a lot less (I'm not a fan of them either but the difference in actions between the sheltering of PA vs them has been huge).

Even if they don’t care about the girls, they should be horrified about his poor judgement, dodgy deals and the ease with which he could be exploited.

I suspect the problem is that facing up to that would also require Charles to acknowledge his own flawed behaviour.

Whatever the truth I doubt he will come out of this well

I think that horse has already bolted .

As far as the girls being 'willing'....that is not how it works as far as procurement, coercion, control and trafficking works

Just because a young girl smiles, doesn't mean she's 'willing'
They don't have to be manacled in a basement to be trafficked

@Aubree17

I think he had sex with Virginia.

At that point he was much younger, and she was above the age of consent in the UK so in this respect I don't think he did anything wrong.

I also believe she willingly had sex with him.

The trafficking question is much much more difficult. Were these girls held against their will? I suspect not.

Were they lured by the trappings of wealth and the luxury lifestyle Epstein could offer. Possibly.

Did Andrew know the full extent of Epstein's exploits? It should have been obvious he liked young woman but I doubt he knew the full extent.

Whatever the truth I doubt he will come out of this well.

I agree entirely with this.

I can't get worked up about some of these testimonials from Epstein's ex girlfriends because a) they were above the age of consent and b) were motivated by money. Even now they are looking for their 7 or 8 figure payouts as are their teams of shark lawyers and that to me reduces their credibility. The whole thing stinks.

I personally believe that PA should face American justice the same day that AS is extradited to the UK on charges of death by dangerous driving and then scarpering.

[quote RoyalFamilyFan]@merrymouse Andrew was the official trade ambassador for the UK. Somone so naive that they could go to a party of rich men in their forties, fifties and sixties who were kissing and having sex upstairs with 16, 17 and 18-year-olds, is far to naive to have any official role.
To be clear I think he is guilty. And if my 17-year-old DD said she was going to a party where all the girls attending were her age, and all the men were forty plus, my alarm bells would be bringing so strongly and I would be ringing the police.
Any parent who didn't have major alarm bells ringing at this situation really needs to do courses about grooming and child exploitation. There are lots of free ones available online.

But there will always be some defending men's behaviour. I remember some defending 7 and 8-year-old boys sleeping in Michael Jackson's bed for a "sleepover". Somehow when men are famous, some people apply different standards than they would to Jimmy who lives in a council flat.[/quote]
This, with bells on. Dear God.
That said, this only goes to emphasise how calculated GM was in her grooming - trawling parks for girls from questionable backgrounds - not merely getting friendly, but scrutiny, subtle questioning, targeting, background checks - it's chilling. Guilty as fuck.

As for PA, given that there are royal aids and advisors crawling over the RF, there is no way that the palace didn't know of his little indiscretions. This wasn't a one off chance occurrence of terrible judgement; this was a sustained relationship over a lengthy period of time and many foreign trips abroad. And now, they're still backing him. The whole thing is awful. Morally corrupt.

I hope that this begins the end of the royal family. I really hope mud sticks this time.

The Queen is not just any mother. She is supposed to be a figurehead to the nation. She is supposed to be the Head of the Church.

She is between a rock and a hard place.

With regard to why didn’t the Queen do anything 12 years ago, I’m not sure what people were expecting her to do, he is a grown man. She (and PP among others) gave him advice and warnings which he then showed scant regard for. She could have taken the trade envoy role from him but that wouldn’t have made any difference, he would still have been Gislaine’s lapdog friend and would still have attended parties with Epstein etc. Its clear PA has little respect for the work his Mother has done over the many decades. He does what he wants when he wants and won’t be told. With titles or without he is and will always be a loose canon in the family. I would expect him to have his titles removed after the civil case though, that is the decider for me where the Queen/Prince Charles and the future of the monarchy is concerned.

Sacoolas is being brought to court and has nothing whatsoever to do with this case

Funny how other people who met epstein saw he was a con artist immediately.
Epstein managed to cajole and hoodwink hard nosed multi millionaire tough business men. The vf articles describe pa as low hanging fruit to epstein.

The rf seem totally dismissive to va. Rude, dismissive of her and the other victims as though they are a different species.

Not human, on the make etc... Who wouldn't want to be a Prince.
One has to keep reminding oneself he was there being entertained and giving epsiten credibility after epstein was jailed in florida.

"Probably not, or he'd have paid Fergies debts himself"

I don't know enough about the RF and maybe this is a naieve question / the answer is out there already (in which case apologies).
But why did PA feel obliged to actually pay Fergies debts in the first place (assuming they are in her sole name)?

They are divorced - why could PA have not just left Fergie to go bankrupt?

I confess I do not understand their relationship/marriage at all - they are divorced yet seem to have raised their daughters very closely (personally I find it creepy that the photo of the 4 of them as a family ski-ing somewhere and the famous phone of PA, VR and GM together in that townhouse smiling were both apparently taken in the same month - March 2001).
They have been divorced for literally years yet they have recently bought a ski chalet "together" somewhere (where Fergie and the daughters are currently on holiday).

Its like they are still married but they are not. PA could have dis associated himself from Fergies money (or lack thereof) but he did not.
Bizarre.

@StormzyinaTCup

The Queen is not just any mother. She is supposed to be a figurehead to the nation. She is supposed to be the Head of the Church.

She is between a rock and a hard place.

With regard to why didn’t the Queen do anything 12 years ago, I’m not sure what people were expecting her to do, he is a grown man. She (and PP among others) gave him advice and warnings which he then showed scant regard for. She could have taken the trade envoy role from him but that wouldn’t have made any difference, he would still have been Gislaine’s lapdog friend and would still have attended parties with Epstein etc. Its clear PA has little respect for the work his Mother has done over the many decades. He does what he wants when he wants and won’t be told. With titles or without he is and will always be a loose canon in the family. I would expect him to have his titles removed after the civil case though, that is the decider for me where the Queen/Prince Charles and the future of the monarchy is concerned.

How do you know the Queen gave Andrew advice and warnings? I haven't seen this anywhere. Have some news outlets said this? Or do you know the Queen? Andrew used the trade envoy position to cosy up to a series of dictators and very dodgy people. I absolutely would have taken that away from him. The Queen controls the flow of money. Of course she could use that to control Andrew if she wants to.

@mathanxiety

If VG wins she will be left with a huge legal bill and an award by the US civil court which she won’t see a penny of because the court has no jurisdiction in the U.K.

Au contraire, any judgement in her favour can and will be enforced in any country in the world where there exists the rule of law.

He is obliged to respond to motions and discovery in the NY court.

He is obliged to do so regardless of the fact that VG was not underage under UK law at the time she was lent out to him.

He has to abide by the verdict.

And if the verdict goes against her, you can bet he will be crowing about vindication in a court of law.

If Andrew could simply ignore a verdict, then anyone rich enough to run off to another country could effectively thumb their nose at any court and at their victims.

Actually it is only where there is a reciprocal agreement between the 2 countries where an a countries civil case ruling can be applied in the other country.

The U.K. does not have a reciprocal agreement with the US on civil court cases

If an award was made then the only way to get the money owed is there would have to be an application to the courts here to chase the “debt”
However there are certain circumstances that would have to be adhered to in the cIvil court case in the US and I don’t see those things happening.