Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Prince Andrew

999 replies

Tevion28 · 01/01/2022 23:58

Do you think guilty or innocent

OP posts:
CathyorClaire · 02/01/2022 12:28

Buckingham Palace, GM sat on a throne

Alongside Kevin Spacey.

Woody Allen was also present at the 2010 NY private dinner party.

HRH certainly knows how to pick 'em...

youvegottenminuteslynn · 02/01/2022 12:28

@chaosrabbitland

Imagine not even having the decency to show an ounce of empathy to someone who shared they were a victim of rape and mocking them instead. Now that's what I call sad and pathetic. I hope to god it never happens to you or anyone who would need to lean on you afterwards.

I'm no longer engaging with a victim blaming apologist.

chaosrabbitland · 02/01/2022 12:28

[quote Roussette]@chaosrabbitland

I will not answer personal attacks. However, you must know your posts are awful to assume that I mean you[/quote]
nope i see other posts are being reported by others , its not everyones opinion that my posts are awful , im not the only one on this thread with doubts about virginia roberts story , you just assume you speak for every single person on this thread , but by the looks of other comments you dont

RoyalFamilyFan · 02/01/2022 12:29

@SecretSpAD

The father of my adopted children (the children of my husbands sister) is a sex trafficker. Of course, being of aristocratic stock people don't use those words, just make jokes about Arthur's taste for young girls in their private members clubs and their country estates and private islands - one of which is has resided on for many years now because there's no extradition arrangement with the UK.

Arthur (nit his real name) and his "friends" started their paedophile ring whilst in oxford. It didn't look too bad then, just a group of young posh undergrads inviting local girls to parties and plying them with champagne and vodka. The girls were only 3 or 4 years younger and there was never really any proof that any sex happened and this was the early 80's so different times, different morals....oh and a 30 year old man who married a 19 year old in front of millions across the world.

Arthur then left oxford and got a job in the city (as well bred men did then) and at the age of 29 raped a 12 year old - my sister in law. She was known to be a bit of a wild child so her parents blamed her for leading him on and so she got the reputation of being a silly little slut. That attitude allowed him to continue raping her and she became pregnant with her first child at 15. She was thrown out of school and forced into a marriage with him for respectability on her 16th birthday. He continued raping her - but of course it wasn't really rape because they were married. It was his right to have her anytime he wanted and to share her around his friends. By the time she was 20 he was pimping her out at S&M parties and he encouraged her to take drugs and drink to excess because it made her more pliable.

He eventually grew bored of her when she was 25 with two young children and threw her and the children out on the streets. He went on to continue to run a private club where men of his age and class could fuck young girls in private. Obviously the men were all powerful and rich. I don't know who they were and neither does my husband (who was abroad for a lot of this time so unaware of exactly what was happening). We suspect that there were a few members of the royal family because Arthur socialised in those circles. I remember my mother in law being very proud of his pedigree and connections and, being the disgusting human being she is, felt that her daughter had "married well". This was the daughter who had been used as a sex slave and who was then having to resort to blackmailing her ex husband to feed the children and house them. She never told us who the men were and was afraid that if she did, or if she reported it, then he would kill her. Whether he would have or not, I don't know.

The fact is, whatever background the girls come from, they are always the victims of rich, influential, powerful and manipulative men. A 12 year old is not able to be a slut, they are a child that has been corrupted.

Teenagers - and I've seen it with my two - are full of bluff and bluster, but ultimately they are vulnerable and just learning how to navigate the adult world. It is up to adults to help and support them and not abuse them. It is never, ever the fault of a young girl that she has been trafficked, used as a sex slave and manipulated into a situation that is of the making of a grown man.

Rich people often are above the law.
SecretSpAD · 02/01/2022 12:29

Yet to some... it's just a nice little earner, and she smiled and knew what she was doing.

A lot of people still think this way. My mother in law - a "respectable " upper class woman with a good education and who has been a magistrate believed that when her 12 year old CHILD told her that she had been raped by a family friend called her CHILD a slut and prick tease and to,d her that she was lucky to have "pulled" such a well connected man.

She is not allowed near her grandchildren. Their only contact is a brief phone conversation once a month and now, as they get older and understand more about what happened to their mother, they don't even want that.

Children do not know what they are doing. People who say that are enabling paedophilia to continue.

TatianaBis · 02/01/2022 12:30

@chaosrabbitland

im not the only one who thinks shes not quite the victim shes portraying herself as

It’s true there are equally unintelligent, equally amoral, equally misogynist people who agree with you - you’re in bad company.

UniversalAunt · 02/01/2022 12:31

‘ FYI… 17 is underage in America. 18 is the legal adult age in the states.
Trafficking a minor across state lines or internationally is a federal crime in the US. So the crime of an underage girl being taken outside of the US and to different states is enough to be prosecuted in the US.’

This is the twist in the sordid tale.

PrinceA may not have committed a crime on UK soil at that time (as we know the law was updated after the event & rightly cannot be backdated). He’s an arrogant,, privileged, entitled sleezeball, not much doubt there & then he did the Maitliss interview.

But by US law he may be liable to be charged with trafficking & under age sex offences, although he is not an American citizen, & the crime does not stand in the territory where the alleged event took place. What may be PrinceA’s downfall is the extraordinary extradition rights the US has in the UK. By international agreement, the US can extradite an UK citizen for trial on US soil for a US crime that did not take place in US territory, & this is reach is not contained by UK law. This matter has been of some concern.

An example here : www.theguardian.com/law/2010/dec/01/uk-businessman-faces-extradition

& some background about the US-UK Extradition Treaty/Act 2003: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK–US_extradition_treaty_of_2003

Prince A & any other UK citizens facing extradition to the US, on the grounds of ‘reasonable suspicion’ rather than actual evidence, needs to have highly competent lawyers to make sure that their rights are protected. This means that he can be extradited from the UK without any evidence or charge against him.

Popping over the pond to have a friendly chat with US law enforcement is a euphemism for get here or we’ll legally extradite him.

So, I am not averse to PrinceA being lawyered up & following their instruction. It would be an error to infer guilt from what he does/doesn’t do as reported on SM as there is a background game in play where the usual rules or natural ‘fairness’ are scrubbed out.

He’s still an arrogant, privileged entitled sleezeball.

TatianaBis · 02/01/2022 12:32

@SecretSpAD

Yet to some... it's just a nice little earner, and she smiled and knew what she was doing.

A lot of people still think this way. My mother in law - a "respectable " upper class woman with a good education and who has been a magistrate believed that when her 12 year old CHILD told her that she had been raped by a family friend called her CHILD a slut and prick tease and to,d her that she was lucky to have "pulled" such a well connected man.

She is not allowed near her grandchildren. Their only contact is a brief phone conversation once a month and now, as they get older and understand more about what happened to their mother, they don't even want that.

Children do not know what they are doing. People who say that are enabling paedophilia to continue.

I was very shocked and saddened by your story @SecretSpAD do you mind my asking what happened to your adopted children’s mother?
LadyEloise1 · 02/01/2022 12:32

Oh my @SecretSpAD
Your poor sil.
What a complete sh*t your bil is.
What a pity he can't be named and shamed. No doubt there would be people in his circle with high standards who would shun him.

toomuchlaundry · 02/01/2022 12:32

@CathyorClaire how many posters on here have watched Kevin Spacey or Woody Allen films? I’m sure many of us have unwittingly put money into pockets of very grubby men. People still listen to Michael Jackson songs

RoyalFamilyFan · 02/01/2022 12:33

Victim blaming is common and is why Social Services are never just interested in the perpetrator, but also in whether the parent can recognise what happened and do what is necessary to protect their child from future abuse.
A parent who engages in victim-blaming cant adequately protect their own child.

Roussette · 02/01/2022 12:33

Don't worry chaos you have the odd person on here who vaguely agrees with the odd thing you say.

Alondra · 02/01/2022 12:35

One thing I'd like to point out....

I know people often talk crap about the US justice system. I don't. Yes, miscarragies of justice happens like in any other country, but I have a very healthy respect for their justice system.

If Andrew's legal team can't get him out on a technicality, he's in trouble.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 02/01/2022 12:36

If all he was doing was breaking off the friendship why would (doing it by phone) matter?

It wouldn't from Andrew's POV - in fact it could have helped him to trot out his own recording of him saying it was inapproriate to continue the connection - but the fly in the ointment is what Epstein may have said in reply, also immortalised on tape

Since it's known that Epstein had cameras all over the place, it's always been my belief there are "records" on a great number of people they wouldn't want made public, and because of who they are it probably never will be

RoyalFamilyFan · 02/01/2022 12:37

"Judge Lewis A Kaplan issued a written order telling Prince Andrew’s lawyers that they must adhere to an already scheduled document handover. Further, the judge rejected a motion by the prince's attorneys to have the lawsuit dismissed on jurisdictional grounds as Ms Giuffre no longer lives in the US."

www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/prince-andrew-suffers-double-setback-from-us-judge-in-epstein-abuse-case/ar-AASlim3?ocid=msedgntp

RoyalFamilyFan · 02/01/2022 12:37

@Alondra

One thing I'd like to point out....

I know people often talk crap about the US justice system. I don't. Yes, miscarragies of justice happens like in any other country, but I have a very healthy respect for their justice system.

If Andrew's legal team can't get him out on a technicality, he's in trouble.

I really hope you are correct.
NellieBertram · 02/01/2022 12:38

@ginghamstarfish

I'm no fan of his, and maybe he did have sex with the young women while visiting Maxwell etc, as men will do. It doesn't mean he would know the circumstances of them being there. What puzzles me is that these young women, some of whom have been interviewed in the media recently, say things like 'I was invited to their hotel room/house etc where they raped me .... and this continued for the next 3/4 years'. Another interview yesterday was from the mother of one of these girls, who said that the girl was paid $300 for each time she went. So as it appears none of these girls were actually imprisoned by Maxwell/Epstein but chose to keep going back to them, travelling with them, then it seems that it was clearly sex for money. Yes, Maxwell and Epstein are/were vile predatory individuals, but there's something that doesn't add up (and no I am not victim blaming - if anything it seems a case of impressionable young women who were attracted to the glamorous lifestyle and taken advantage of). 'Trafficking' is generally used to mean something much worse than this, where girls are taken from their home/country and kept against their will for sex.
No, actually a lot of sex trafficking is vulnerable young girls being groomed, paid, promised legit jobs, showered with gifts rather than guns being put to their heads. It’s older “boyfriends” moving them around not masked random kidnappers like a Hollywood movie.
coraka · 02/01/2022 12:38

I just want to say how much I admire and respect Virginia Giuffre for what she is doing. She is doing a service for all women e wry where. Because of her, abusers will think twice and victims will have the courage to speak out.

She is a heroine. Those bastards really fucking underestimated her.

Forza Virginia!

OnTheSafeSide · 02/01/2022 12:39

Just catching up here - merrymouse

" At some point you have to ask whether ‘he was just too stupid to know’ is an acceptable defence for somebody who was once 2nd in line to be head of state. "

I think that just about sums it up! Well said.

Kennykenkencat · 02/01/2022 12:40

The old “she’s only after money/fame” accusation is often trotted out in these cases (see also R Kelly, Bill Cosby, Michael Jackson, etc

Bill Cosby had his conviction over turned, due to a legal technicality, Michael Jackson was acquitted on all counts and only R Kelly is in prison.

Whilst people might think guilty, the courts decision relies on evidence and not on feeling. This works both ways. There have been innocent people found guilty based on feelings and weak evidence and equally guilty people who have been found not guilty because of weak evidence and feelings.

RoyalFamilyFan · 02/01/2022 12:40

Eastenders portrayed really well how grooming usually happens through older "boyfriends".
This is a really important point. If your teenage daughter has an older boyfriend, especially one buying her expensive gifts, please find out more.

SecretSpAD · 02/01/2022 12:41

@TatianaBis she died of cancer a few years ago and the children came to live with us. She did have several attempts to get clean over the years, but it was too late for her.

CathyorClaire · 02/01/2022 12:42

[quote toomuchlaundry]@CathyorClaire how many posters on here have watched Kevin Spacey or Woody Allen films? I’m sure many of us have unwittingly put money into pockets of very grubby men. People still listen to Michael Jackson songs[/quote]
Eh?

Two different things.

I can't imagine there are many here who have chortled as Kevin Spacey sprawled on Mummy's sofa or who have made small talk with Woody Allen at an intimate dinner party for eight held by a recently convicted sex offender.

RoyalFamilyFan · 02/01/2022 12:42

"Prince Andrew is under ­pressure to give up his nine ­military roles, according to ­defence sources.

Top brass are hoping he will resign so the Queen is not forced to strip him of his honorary titles.

The disclosure comes after senior military chiefs privately labelled Andrew, 61, as “toxic”.

Defence sources have told the Sunday People that the Army’s most senior commanders believe it is now impossible for the Duke of York to continue in his role as colonel-in-chief of nine military regiments, units and corps.

His close friendship with sex predators Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell has been described by senior defence sources as “untenable”."

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/top-army-chiefs-want-toxic-25831831

Swipe left for the next trending thread