Prince Andrew

[Tevion28]

Do you think guilty or innocent

Yes but having a severe lack of judgement and being bloody stupid are not in and of themselves criminal acts.

Of course.

However I think Andrew himself engaged in criminal acts. I was just making the wider point that it's probably not good for celebs/royals to fraternise with criminals.

@whachatalkinaboutwillis

Guilty. He must go to prison, it's a horrific situation, he's now hiding behind the Queen and I've lost all respect for her.

You don't know what's going on behind closed doors though, perhaps she had shunned him?

She has to keep up appearances for the sake of the monarchy. It comes before all else, after all.

Many in Britain are still forelock tuggers.

I'm a 2nd gen immigrant so find this phenomenon very interesting.

& bizarre!

[quote RoyalFamilyFan]@Kennykenkencat lots of cases that get dropped by the police under pressure from senior people, end up being won in civil court. Hillsborough is a very famous case in point as was the murder of Stephen Lawrence.
People resort to civil courts not because they are greedy commoners out for all they can get, but because when they have tried the police and got nowhere, civil court is the only place they can go.

Or do you think the Hillsborough family victims and Stephen Lawrences mother only went to civil court because they are greedy?[/quote]
You are mistaking the U.K. legal system with the US. Civil cases in the US are purely for money and like here require not as much evidence

The Queen made it quite clear by her actions that she supported him.

Oh, definitely guilty

The royal family has a looooooong history of utter debauchery. Nothing would surprise me.

He'll never be held accountable though. People are deluded if they think the reality is anything other than the royal family are above the law.

@Kennykenkencat No I am not. Virginia tried to get the police to pursue a criminal conviction in the US. They dropped the case after Andrew refused to be interviewed by him and the government would not make him agree to be interviewed.

[quote gilorga]@LookslovelyinSpringtime but it's weird that Andrew couldn't pay it off with his millions? plain greed then I guess [/quote]
I don't think Andrew has millions.

People resort to civil courts not because they are greedy commoners out for all they can get, but because when they have tried the police and got nowhere, civil court is the only place they can go.

This was my understanding & I believe it's more common in America?

This is a civil case, purely about money if the evidence sort of proves he is responsible how much compensation he has to pay rather than jail time and being found guilty in a criminal case

If he is found liable in a civil case, it is possible that a criminal case will follow.

The other issue is that even if there isn’t enough evidence to make a civil or legal case against him now, the lack of judgement and moral integrity displayed so far has implications for the place of the Royal Family in society. They seem to be focusing completely on the legal case and have so far done nothing to address the failings he has shown (presumably because of the court case).

VG will either win the court case, or lose because of lack of evidence or on a technicality, but neither of those options can help his reputation.

@IncompleteSenten

Oh, definitely guilty

The royal family has a looooooong history of utter debauchery. Nothing would surprise me.

He'll never be held accountable though. People are deluded if they think the reality is anything other than the royal family are above the law.

I totally agree he will never be held accountable. Very expensive lawyers are being used to defend him and they are using every delaying tactic they legally can. I hope Virginia has good security as I really think she is at risk.

whachatalkinaboutwillis
Guilty. He must go to prison, it's a horrific situation, he's now hiding behind the Queen and I've lost all respect for her

But he hasn’t been charged with anything and as far as I am aware unless someone who has proof and is deemed a reliable witness comes along then he will never be criminally charged.

I used to be fairly apathetic about the Royal Family but the last 20 years I have really really started seriously questioning the purpose of it and ask why it should not be disbanded.

I 'spose i don't mind Wills and Kate (and I have some residual respect for the Queen - although her track record with her children ain't great) but the rest of them - meh.

I just don't see any justifiable public service at all.

@gilorga

People resort to civil courts not because they are greedy commoners out for all they can get, but because when they have tried the police and got nowhere, civil court is the only place they can go.

This was my understanding & I believe it's more common in America?

Yes, it is very common in America. Some states seem pretty corrupt in terms of the police and which cases are pursued.

I'm not sure what crime can actually be pinned on Andrew.

If he can be prosecuted and sentenced for sleeping with a 17 year old who has been trafficked, then all the other men she and her fellow victims slept with will be guilty of the same crime?

@footcushion he certainly has it to spend though?

why did she have to borrow 15k off Epstein? so strange.

I’m pretty sure a sum far larger than £15k was involved. £15k is just window dressing.

@bubblesbubbles11

I used to be fairly apathetic about the Royal Family but the last 20 years I have really really started seriously questioning the purpose of it and ask why it should not be disbanded.

I 'spose i don't mind Wills and Kate (and I have some residual respect for the Queen - although her track record with her children ain't great) but the rest of them - meh.

I just don't see any justifiable public service at all.

I think the issue with the Royal Family is it is hereditary. You get who is born next. It is simply fate that Andrew is unlikely ever to be King.

Boring fucker alert!

About the Latin passage re 'Caesar's wife'. It's from Suetonius's Lives of the Caesars (Bk 74) and the original, while alluding to his wife being put aside for alleged adultery (hence 'uxorem' in the accusative, from the end of a previous clause) does actually refer to Caesar's whole family needing to be free of criminal accusations:

interrogatusque, cur igitur repudiasset uxorem: "Quoniam," inquit, "meos tam suspicione quam crimine iudico carere oportere."

(and on being asked why it was then that he had put away his wife, he replied: "Because I maintain that the members of my family should be free from suspicion, as well as from accusation.")

Anyway, the point of my banging on about all this is that both Julius Caesar and the ancient historian Suetonius did indeed leave between them a bit of wisdom that the Queen and Charles might to do well to ponder upon.

If Charles thinks that because he's part of an established monarchy (unlike J Caesar, who was trying to establish one) he has automatic personal moral authority over his 'subjects', he's an idiot. As far as bread and circuses go, the British monarchy now is the bloody circus.

@merrymouse I agree, it's far too paltry.

@EdenFlower

I'm not sure what crime can actually be pinned on Andrew.

If he can be prosecuted and sentenced for sleeping with a 17 year old who has been trafficked, then all the other men she and her fellow victims slept with will be guilty of the same crime?

Having sex with a girl who has been trafficked for sex is illegal. Simply because lots of other men have done the same does not change that fact.

I highly recommend listening to the Real Crime Profile podcast episodes about Prince Andrew’s interview. Two of the hosts are trained criminal behaviour analysts (Jim Clemente, ex-FBI, and Laura Richards, ex-Scotland Yard).

Let’s just say they don’t hold back and forensically take apart the whole interview. Suffice to say PA does not come out of it well!

Ep 1 - podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/real-crime-profile/id1081244497?i=1000459312687

Ep 2 - podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/real-crime-profile/id1081244497?i=1000459490380

The podcast has been running for years and has covered many high profile cases, mostly in the US but many with UK interests too. They did a 12-part series on Epstein himself which is also well worth a listen and in the last 48 hours have dropped 2 episodes responding to the verdict of the Ghislaine Maxwell trial.

I respect the Queen for her work ethic but then I still think the finances are shady. None of them seem above granting meetings with dubious characters.

The upper classes have zero morals and behave like the worst slum estate residents but with money, education and protection. I should know having come from there and thoroughly rejected it. If Prince Andrew was convicted that would be the end of the monarchy. The beginning of the end anyway. They base all behaved appallingly over the last 50 years and once the Queen has gone there is nobody left to respect.