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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to want to start my own 'working class Mumsnet'?

433 replies

shoplifteroftheworld · 31/12/2021 18:45

I see so many topics and conversations on here that just don't relate to my own life and experiences. Lots of well off women talking about their recent purchases from Boden or Uniqlo or some other place I can't afford to shop. Chat about dinner parties and holidays abroad. I'd like a site for mums and women on lower incomes as this site can leave a lot of us feeling left out of certain conversations.

OP posts:
Freecuthbert · 08/01/2022 04:50

@onlychildhamster

People can talk about what they want, I didn't say people can't talk about things. But I can still call out ignorance.

MidnightMeltdown · 08/01/2022 11:27

@Freecuthbert

I'm sorry to hear that things are hard for you at the moment, but I don't think you can argue that yours is the typical working class experience. When I was growing up, my dad was a factory worker, and later a lorry driver - hardly middle class jobs with middle class salaries, but we could afford H&M, New look etc.

Everything is relative. In comparison to Boden, H&M is extremely cheap. Historically, clothes were more expensive, and people would have spent a much higher proportion of their income on clothing, so also by historical standards, H&M is cheap.

Also, producing clothing is not free, it is labour intensive, so in order for for H&M, Primark etc to sell clothing at this price, it's obvious that somebody is being exploited. This isn't meant as a criticism of anyone who shops there, it's all that some people can afford, but I don't think that you can argue that H&M aren't cheap for clothing.

With respect, I don't think that your issue is not being able to shop in 'middle class' shops (Boden etc), it seems that you cannot afford to buy new clothing full stop, and that is something quite different.

Also, someone mentioned upthread that they are on benefits and shop in Uniqlo - so this isn't about people being 'ignorant', there is contradictory information. Clearly some people on low incomes can afford to shop at Uniqlo.

onlychildhamster · 08/01/2022 11:47

@Freecuthbert I am sorry to hear you are struggling. I am not saying its the norm, i was just sharing my experiences of people I am close to who are on really low incomes but spend more or a similar amount on clothes (not in total amount but on individual items).

I was surprised about my DH's friend. No he isn't working at all, he is studying. He is sharing a 1 bedroom flat with his grandma. it is definitely assisted living. I think it may be off the books and that development may not check; my youngest SIL was helping out this old lady who has unfortunately passed on and she coincidentally lived in this same development as my DH's friend's grandma (my SIL lives a few streets away). my SIL used to stay nights a few times a week (and that was fine). Of course she wasn't living there but it also wasn't formal care in the slightest (she wasn't paid the usual amount you pay for a carer, it was more of a favor than formal work)- more like a sleepover where she massaged the old lady's feet, made her cups of tea, helped her to the bathroom and listened to her stories.Maybe the old lady is making out her grandson provides a similar service but every night. Her grandson chooses to live there instead of his parents' house because he has become religious and his parents are not religious (they don't have a kosher home and apparently they are disapproving of his choices), his grandma is probably more supportive. I don't think he inherited any of the clothes as they are quite specific to that community in terms of style and his parents didn't belong to that community. They wouldn't totally look out of place in the City though!

onlychildhamster · 08/01/2022 11:58

@Freecuthbert ultra orthodox jewish community is extremely poor and many of them wear suits. I am sure some of them get charitable donations/gifts but not everyone who is poor probably would get them! a Shtriemel in the satmar community ( a fur hat) is probably worth 8000 USD and they all need one, its part of their religion. So many of them are genuinely struggling but I wouldn't say they are not poor just because they wear suits and have an expensive fur hat!

But of course i do think their lives are a lot harder than many non ultra orthodox jewish poor people because they have such restrictive clothing requirements.

Freecuthbert · 08/01/2022 13:22

@onlychildhamster

You have got to be fucking kidding me if you think anyone can just afford a $8000 fur hat, religion or no religion Confused clearly if they are that poor they are not the ones funding those hats, use some bloody critical thinking! Do you think money grows on trees, or that those who have to buy clothing bundles on ebay are just frittering their money elsewhere? Clearly these are being given to them by their community, by their families, inherited or something. You are literally not poor if you have a spare 8k you can splash on a hat. Ridiculous.

Before you made out this guy had to move in with his grandma because he was on the bones of his arse. Now the story is that he's a student and he moved there by choice because of his religion. Talk about drip feed!

You also do realise right that people on such a range of incomes can be on benefits. And some benefits aren't means tested.

You also do realise I am not "struggling", we manage, but if I clothed my family in H&M then we'd bloody struggle alright Confused? Honestly the sympathy from you and @MidnightMeltdown is actually patronising while insisting I must be especially dirt poor to not afford H&M! Shock

onlychildhamster · 08/01/2022 13:36

@Freecuthbert most students in London do not live in 1 bed flats with their grandparents. This is his third degree so I don't think he qualifies for student loans based on the rules..he undeniably has v low income...

Oh that community is known for their deprivation. It is very well documented that they are poor..and yes there are some rich donors but they can't support everyone and each family has 12 kids, how do they have a fur hat to give to each son! The men generally get the fur hats when they marry and they marry young. I don't pretend to understand the economics of this community. I am Jewish (but liberal), I do know the added expenses of a Jewish life (buying in a Jewish area;also the costs of kosher food; even though I am not strict, I do buy kosher occasionally and it's more like Waitrose type prices). I think it's all incredibly expensive and I have asked many times how non professional people afford it but many Jewish people on low incomes clearly do! While you personally cannot afford h & m, it doesn't mean that some poor people might not be able to afford it. Just like a PP can afford Uniqlo and the ultra orthodox afford their suits, fur hats and their weddings for 300 people (that's just their immediate relatives) and no there is no infinite supply of kind rich people sponsoring everyone's weddings!

Freecuthbert · 08/01/2022 14:13

@onlychildhamster

You are incredibly foolish to accept at face value that people on very low incomes can afford 8k hats for each of their 12 children. These would be already within the family and passed down, donated by the community, etc. If you want to insist they can afford to buy these hats in such dire straits, then they are not poor. But I would think they are not the ones buying them. It comes across like you are saying, if these low income people can afford 8k hats, then of course low income people can afford to buy the same brands I buy. I am not saying oh every single poor person cannot afford H&M or whatever brand, what I am saying is it's ignorant and crass to assume anyone on a low income can afford to shop at certain places.

Waxonwaxoff0 · 08/01/2022 14:23

@DeepaBeesKit

non drivers are hated.On mumsnet.

Not true but there are things people say that annoy. 1) saying you "don't" drive when what you mean is you can't drive i.e. have no license (I appreciate some people can drive but don't, that's not who I'm talking about). These are the people who are often dismissive of the importance of it as a skill, and when questioned it emerges they rely on many drivers in their life and don't even realise it.

I can't drive. It is not an important skill FOR ME. I live in an area with good public transport and get everywhere I need to using that or my own 2 legs. Don't have a partner and no one drives me around.
onlychildhamster · 08/01/2022 14:31

@Freecuthbert

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11823332
That hat is not the shtriemel, that is the normal hat they wear everyday..
They are very poor and they do buy them. my DH went to an ultra orthodox primary school so is more familiar with their circumstances and while some families can get help, not everyone does. my DH and his siblings qualified for free school meals but they still charged his mother full school fees (majority of ultra orthodox schools are not funded by the state as they don't teach maths and english and yes some parents have to pay or it would not be possible to run the school). They definitely would not fund everyone's expensive fur hats. The point about inheritance- just like someone who owns property in london generally cannot pass down a house each to multiple children (generally house is sold and proceeds divided), there are more children with each generation so there would be not be enough shtriemels from deceased grandparents to pass down! The ultra orthodox population is practically doubling with their high birthrate! It is why some of them have to move out of london because even though some might have inheritances to live in the area, there aren't enough houses or flats to go around.
And the prices has gone down a lot, i saw one on ebay for £1800 and apparently there are cheaper real fur ones from china which are £600-700. Still quite expensive. If you ask me off hand whether i could pay £600 for a hat, i would probably be shocked and say no, but then this is not my denomination, I do not prize hats! The women spend quite a lot of money on wigs, though its not as expensive as real fur and i don't think its a requirement as you can also cover hair with a scarf.

And only men wear them, so i guess most people don't have 12 sons.

forward.com/schmooze/401441/shtreimel-styles-are-ruled-by-trends-as-much-as-tradition-even-for-hasidim/

I am also saying it isn't clear cut what people can shop at. I would agree that yes generally poor people cannot shop at Chanel. But I think its a bit of a stretch to say that Boden and Uniqlo are completely closed off. It would be like saying an ultra orthodox jew would never be able to have a wedding for 300 people/have many children/buy a fur hat/buy a suit if he is on benefits just because some secular people feel they personally can't afford children or big weddings or expensive clothes (I have seen people on decent incomes on mumsnet say they can't afford all the above;I am also guilty of that which is why I am opting for an only child and not having a big wedding). And there are many ultra orthodox jews on benefits who have 5 children, had a wedding with their 300 immediate relatives etc and not all paid for by charitable individuals! Everyone has different circumstances

Freecuthbert · 08/01/2022 14:49

@onlychildhamster

Absolutely no "very poor" people are buying 8k hats. Nope. But again you drip feed, apparently you can buy the hats for $600 now not just 8k. Hmm

Freecuthbert · 08/01/2022 14:50

Also I never said Boden and Uniqlo are completely closed off to low incomes. I have very clearly said it is ignorant to argue that of course people can afford to buy there, they just don't choose to.

CSJobseeker · 08/01/2022 15:16

8k hats. Fucking hell. Shock

CSJobseeker · 08/01/2022 15:20

Boden isnt totally inaccessible, but it's certainly not cheap. My mum lives on a state pension only, and she occasionally buys her grandkids clothes at same price point as Boden. But (a) they're kids clothes, so cheaper than the adult ranges, (b) she has no housing costs and a very cheap lifestyle, so her outgoings are minimal, and (c) she views those purchases as being for special occasions/gifts. She wouldn't ever buy more expensive than that.

onlychildhamster · 08/01/2022 15:55

@CSJobseeker they are made from real fur so why not.

Its a real target for crime: abc7ny.com/shtreimel-stolen-hasidic-jew-brooklyn-williamsburg/10418934/

This particular hat was worth 8k and owned by a 27 year old. There are hardly any 'normal' 27 year olds out there who have items costing 8k (most designer bags don't even cost that! chanel bags cost less). But this very poor community does. Majority of men don't work, learn full time and are on benefits! The women do have jobs but they also have on average 6-7 children so need to balance the jobs with childcare and housework and btw they don't go to university or have secular education.

seekinglondonlife · 08/01/2022 16:33

I have found your posts fascinating @onlychildhamster across various threads. I follow a few Jewish accounts on social media and there have been frequent mentions about the costs associated with being Jewish, particularly if you are Torah observant. It sounds unfathomable and a complete oxymoron to say someone is in poverty but has a £8k hat, but it seems priorities are very different and what would seem to most people frivolities are considered necessities.

Freecuthbert · 08/01/2022 16:59

It sounds unfathomable and a complete oxymoron to say someone is in poverty but has a £8k hat, but it seems priorities are very different and what would seem to most people frivolities are considered necessities.

There are people in poverty who can't afford to heat their homes, feed their children, buy the clothes on their children's backs. 400,000 UK children don't have a bed to sleep in because the upfront cost is too much for their cash-strapped parents. So yes it is oxymoronic to suggest people in poverty are buying themselves and their many sons an 8k hat each out of their pockets, simply because their priorities are different. If you can't afford the essentials to begin with, how on earth can you splash thousands of what you don't have on hats no matter their religious significance? Or do people go to food banks for the fun of it? Confused

seekinglondonlife · 08/01/2022 17:06

My point was that perhaps they are poor because they are obliged to buy these items. I don't think many could argue that a poor person with a spare £8k is actually poor.

onlychildhamster · 08/01/2022 17:18

@Freecuthbert . I guess they afford the suits and hats in the same way that unemployed men in 1920s america used to afford their expensive non mass produced suits (if you look at photos of pre war america and europe, everyone was wearing suits). There wasn't any other choice. We are used to cheap clothing but for most of human history, clothing wasn't cheap. people didn't go naked. we see this more in the ultra-orthodox jewish community because they are trying to live life the way their ancestors did in the polish villages when the polish nobility decreed they had to wear animal tails to humilate them and so they fashioned it into hats. I presume animal fur was a lot cheaper then.

On a side note, people in this community don't have TVs, they don't go to the cinema, the children are not exposed to social media so they don't have as many wants as a result. They don't really have days out . They don't travel much except to israel or maybe america (for weddings) and then they always stay with friends and family. my SIL and my MIL are not ultra-orthodox but they hardly ever had a vacation overseas where they did not stay with family or the accomodation wasn't covered by a jewish organization. my MIL paid for an airbnb for her daughter's wedding and that is the only time I have seen her stay in anything but a youth hostel. They eat very simply except on shabbat (DH absolutely hated the food in primary school).

onlychildhamster · 08/01/2022 17:23

@Freecuthbert Cash is tight in these communities so if there was a way to save money, they would. my MIL does buy long sleeve t shirts at primark and other similar shops! She is less religious than some of these women, i have never seen the more religious ones wear t shirts, they always seem to be wearing rather formal type dresses and full wigs.

But there are some things like formal shabbat clothes and suits and shtriemels that they have yet to sell at bargain prices at Primark! A lot of discount clothes tend to veer towards the 'casual' end.

onlychildhamster · 08/01/2022 17:32

@seekinglondonlife they are poor because they prioritize torah study over working full time, they have many children and they don't have secular education. Even without the thousand pound hats, they would still be poor. They also live in metropolitan areas like London (and their neighbourhoods are not the cheapest) where housing costs are high but yet it is hard for them to move because their community is there.

Poverty often has more to do with the income/resources being lacking rather than the cost of living. If it was only to do with cost of living, cheap places in the north wouldn't have such a high poverty rate with all the related issues. after all, even if you scrimp, you still have to pay a minimum for heating, food, clothes. This is the UK, not Bangladesh, whether you are in the north or london, its going to cost you.

Some ultra orthodox have moved out to cheaper areas like Canvey Island and Prestwich but many of them have the same problems with poverty. The difference is that they have bigger houses for their growing families which would be impossible in London. What would really help them is not if they spent less on their religious obligations; but if they got qualifications and the men worked full time. Reducing the number of children would probably help too but its generally found that if both parents work, the birth rate naturally decreases anyway. Like with regular orthodox couples, the norm is 2-3, not 8.

onlychildhamster · 08/01/2022 17:37

@seekinglondonlife how did people in the past pay for their weddings. In the past, everyone got married and the bride got a big poofy white dress. It would probably have cost thousands in today's money! Cheap compared to the average UK wedding today which is £25k! Wouldn't poor people have had to save for their children's weddings and would thus have spare money? the fur hat is worn after one gets married so I presume its part of the costs of marriage in these circles...

seekinglondonlife · 08/01/2022 17:49

This is an interesting article on the Haredi. Interest free loans and hand-me-downs seem to be the answer:

en.globes.co.il/en/article-haredim-arent-as-poor-as-you-think-1001265187

I read the article you posted about Stamford Hill and povertyonlychild that states most of them are on full benefits. Interestingly the 2 years I was on full benefits (dc was sick) I had more disposable income than when I was working!

Freecuthbert · 08/01/2022 22:06

@onlychildhamster

So people in poverty in the UK are spending all their money on big flat screen TVs, going to the cinema, going on days out, travelling abroad and going away for nice holidays? What's next, they're splashing the cash on Sky packages and the latest iPhones? You do realise these are luxuries to many in the UK who couldn't even dream of ever going to America for big weddings! The price for flights for a family of 12 is unthinkable. And you can go for days out for free, that's what I and many people do.

Yes I appreciate many people on really low incomes have some small luxuries like smartphones and TVs. Which are far cheaper than these hats. My TV cost me £100! But many people are often stretched to their limits with phone contracts etc because they can't afford the upfront costs to begin with.

And I can't believe what you just said about weddings. Do you live in a fantasy world where money grows on trees? Average wedding costs are up 3000% since the 1950s. Just have a look here: www.weddingideasmag.com/wedding-costs-decades/

And that is average. Not people in poverty. It's ludicrous to think that the poorest can simply save up for a big lavish wedding costing tens of thousands plus several 8k hats.

There may well be some of these poor people you speak of having grand weddings and ludicrously expensive hats. But it is simply untrue that they are paying for this out of pocket. Otherwise they are not poor, are they? You are so out of touch and the mental gymnastics here to try and prove anyone can afford Boden is stupid.

onlychildhamster · 08/01/2022 22:50

@Freecuthbert no actually I don't have a TV, a car or a tv license or sky. Never had a phone contract before. But I don't think the people who owns tvs, cars or have sky are necessarily richer than me, i just think they spend their money differently. I also didn't plan a big wedding, I saved the money so that we could buy our flat more quickly. I do know many people who have chosen differently, and they spent the little money they had on their wedding, which is fine as well. We are all different.

www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4158597,00.html
I don't think ultra orthodox people who are in poverty want to spent a lot of money on weddings, but due to the ritual aspects and even if you just invite immediate relatives, it does end up costing quite a lot of money as big weddings are the norm- just on the kosher food alone! And yes parents do pay. Which is now ultra orthodox rabbis have put a limit on how much they can spend. And say even if feeding 1 person is £20 (which is overly optimistic for kosher food, its probably more like double), its £6000 for food alone for 300 people which is still a pretty big expense. Most uk weddings are pretty small so that already naturally cuts down expenses. I do think that a lot of uk weddings are extravagant nowadays because people marry later and other than the small minority of religious people, it tends to be more MC people who see the value in marrying!

My point wasn't that poor people on benefits in the UK are not suffering and are spending money on frivolous things. my point is that not all poor people lead similar lives, there are poor people who can and do have higher costs in terms of clothing and weddings etc. However, just because they have these costs, it doesn't mean that they aren't deprived in other ways and its their choice how they want to spend their money. Like I wouldn't dream of doubting that a poor person is in poverty just because he happens to have an Iphone or that a pensioner isn't poor because she happens to own a £1 million house (this is quite common in london due to property price inflation), I would not assume affording Boden would be completely crazy for someone on a low income. Particularly as we have discussed, Boden is far cheaper than suits, weddings for 300 people, fur hats. Of course it is probably more unusual for a poor person to prioritize Boden given that its just a brand rather than a religious obligation/cultural expectation!

How do you know that they are not paying for these weddings and hats out of pocket? Do you have access to their bank accounts? Even when you claim UC, you are still allowed to have savings (not exceeding £12k or something, i recall). And they would still be poor because the definition of poverty is based on your income. There is a minimum income standard determined by the Joseph Rowntree foundation and it is also area dependent i.e. inner london is higher.

www.minimumincome.org.uk/step1/

If you fall below the minimum income based on your area and your household size, you are poor. For a couple in inner london, they need to earn a combined income of £52k to not be poor. I don't even want to calculate how much it is for a family of 8, the minimum income standard only covers up to 4 children anyway. For a couple outside london, you need to earn at least 13k per person to not be poor. This doesn't include whether you have savings or not.

And this is why my MIL is the bottom 10% of the country cos she is still supporting an adult child and the minimum income for a single parent in Outer London with a teenage child is £33000. She earns around half of that, way below london living wage. And even when she had 4 little ones, she earned the same or even less and that was very very tight.

Freecuthbert · 08/01/2022 23:41

@onlychildhamster

Oh do give over, you're the one who came on here all shocked that Boden and such is out of reach for many people, and that in your eyes those clothes aren't that expensive and even your mum on "below minimum wage" can afford them. I am pointing out the ignorance in that and then with every post you've been getting more ridiculous.

If you're in literal poverty, you cannot afford extravagance, not out of your own pocket. It's simply not possible. No I don't have access to their bank accounts, and neither do you by the way! But I have common sense.

Of course I know people are allowed to have savings on Universal Credit... I am on it myself. Deductions start at 6k savings and by 16k savings you have no claim for UC. And there are also lots of rules around deprivation of capital, which paying for an extravagant wedding would be classed as by the way, as would be buying an 8k hat. So people would have to commit benefit fraud and potentially money laundering to be able to purchase those things if they are on UC.

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