Casual racism or AIBU

[Kooksadooks]

Hello. I have a lot on my mind today but hope you are having a nice New Years Eve…
We (me, DP, MIL, FIL, DS ect) were sat around the TV over Christmas period.
The Channel 5 advert featuring Anne Bolelyn played by black actress Jodie Turner-Smith comes on and MIL starts complaining that she ‘doesn’t understand all this’ and ‘Anne Bolelyn wasn’t black’ and doesn’t understand ‘why white people cannot play black people’…
I bit my tongue, I appreciate that I am surrounded by people who agree with her and there’s no point in arguing with them about what I think, also not wanting to cause drama over Christmas but AIBU to feel uncomfortable at MIL’s comments?
I mentioned it to DP afterwards and he agrees with MIL

I'm not sure about this one. It's so historically inaccurate that I think it is weird and distracting, in that it is so completely alien to what would have been a realistic situation for the time. So it comes across as strange virtue signalling in a way.

But yes also ACTING! So why shouldn't this very accomplished actress, who happens to be Black, play this role? No reason at all.

But the fact remains that it is a little like if you did have tall very white angular B. Cumberbatch playing Gandhi. He may play the role of the person well, but it would look utterly bizarre before you even get to the discussion on its social or political acceptibility.

@sst1234

But Ann Boleyn wasn’t black. It’s historically inaccurate to have a black actor play Ann Boleyn. This is the same nonsense as having a female James Bond - he wasn’t written as a woman. It’s just embarrassing virtue signalling to do this sort of stuff. Have stories of real black people ceased to exist? Is it impossible to write a story starting a real female spy? It’s actually racist to give minority and female actors the crumbs off the table, because it implies their own stories are not worthy of being told. It’s not racist to call out this nonsense.

Henry V wasn’t black, either, but Adrian Lester was probably the best one I’ve ever seen. David Oyelowo was an astonishing Henry VI. Ruth Negga was a brilliant Hamlet. I’d be poorer for not having seen them.

@toddybell

I'm black and I agree with your MIL. Anne Boleyn wasn't Black so should be played by someone who factually represented who she was re: ethnicity . I'd feel the same if someone white came along and played Martin Luther King or Mary Jane Seacole or Harriet Seacole or Mahatma Ghandi, etc.

Same here

I’m mixed race and I agree with your MIL.

So if it's ok for a black actress to play a white queen, presumably it's ok if a white actor played Martin Luther King?

i think its kinda racist and hard-of-thinking to be bothered about it. I think its much better for young black kids to grow up seeing diversity in films and TV shows even if it is not the historically accurate ethnicity of the character. It doesnt change anything except the appearance, and I dont see any other criticisms of actors not looking like the character, except around the skin colour

I'm actually Russian and I must say I don't agree with @Shade17 about TV shows/movies about Russia having to be in Russian. There are many great movies about Russia in English.

"The Last Czars" (on Netflix) is very historically accurate and well-done.

"The Inner Circle" (1976) about Stalin is brilliant.

"War and Peace" (1956) with Adrey Hepburn is the best adaptation of War and Peace I have seen and much better than the Russian adaptation.

I actually find it a lot more glaring and unwatchable when foreign actors (even from Eastern Europe) speak Russian with an accent pretending to be Russian. In any event, most of Russian nobility spoke French and not Russian. It would be nearly impossible to make the language authentic.

I mean on this occasion I can see where she is coming from.

AB was a white woman, we all know this, it was a series about her life or loosely based on it. Are we really supposed to believe that The King in the 1500's in England would marry a black woman or that a black person would even be of that class. Earls?

Same I would say if they cast a white man to play Nelson Mandela even if it was a sci-fi series about Nelson Mandela in space saving Mars. Nelson Mandela was a black man.

I get creative thinking and all that, but sometimes you have to at least keep some fraction of reality when casting these things so that the audience can connect to the character even if the story line is a bit bonkers. But the public hold a mental image of historical figures, you wouldn't cast a woman as Winston Churchill. It would just be a bit "odd".

@toddybell

I'm black and I agree with your MIL. Anne Boleyn wasn't Black so should be played by someone who factually represented who she was re: ethnicity . I'd feel the same if someone white came along and played Martin Luther King or Mary Jane Seacole or Harriet Seacole or Mahatma Ghandi, etc.

Agree also

I'm black and agree with your MIL. People would be up in arms if a black person was played by a white character. What is the difference?

I bet the majority of people on this post who are saying that your MIL is wrong and it's racist are white and the ones saying your MIL is right are black. Or at least quite a few have identified as black as far as I can see.

I wish someone would explain why that is to me...

Although I believe Ben Kingsley played Ghandi :)

I don't think YABU, no; as you've said there has been an accumulation of comments made by your partner and his family.

I thought we had already agreed that Ben Kingsley was born Krishna Pandit Bhanji.

so that the audience can connect to the character even if the story line is a bit bonkers.

And what would be wrong with a woman of colour connecting with the character and feeling slightly represented while also knowing its historically inaccurate, its not like its the only representation of AB on film so why care so much about this one unless of course youre more concerned about the skin colour than the skill of the actress

I agree with your MIL.

As someone said earlier, I think it’s sad that we keep on making films about white people, and allowing black actors to have the roles as a sort of consolation prize. We should be making films about BAME people - there are plenty of black/Asian historical figures - or creating new black characters.

I also hate Shakespeare productions which massively deviate from the original too - like productions of Romeo and Juliette with rival biker gangs.

Rather than trying to put a PC or “edgy” spin on old stories, why don’t writers create new stories which are more inclusive and multicultural?

To be honest, I couldn't watch The Tudors because Henry was played by someone with black hair and I just couldn't get past that!!! :-)

I am on the fence here. I believe that the Boleyn program wasn't a factual one but a drama based on? My line is that if its a factual program then you adhere to the facts so far as you can. As Tv is a visual medium, then the people should look right.....but yes I do see casting that is woke for the4 sake of it and that is irritataing

@Anordinarymum

Although I believe Ben Kingsley played Ghandi :)

As others have said, he isn’t white. But even though he needed make up to be dark skinned enough for the part, it was a very very different era. It’s not really comparable.

This is a highly complex issue.

Historically many people of colour in movies were played by white actors (Natalie Wood in West Side Story springs to mind). These days we are trying to move away from that as it had been so limiting for non-white actors in the past.

Done carefully non-white actors playing white roles can be really interesting (George Washington in the Hamilton musical for example). It brings a freshness to the interpretation and makes you question that lack of positive black leadership in films.

I’m from a mixed race family and I agree with your Mil. Likewise I’d think it stupid and offensive to have a white actor playing Nelson Mandela and hate going to the theatre and seeing women playing male roles (unless it’s panto) which is becoming increasingly common. It’s breaks the illusion. It isn’t racist or sexist to hate this trend.

I also get cross with Henry Viii looking like a young athletic man forever when as he aged he became fat, sick, lame and very grumpy. If we had smellyvision he also stank as his leg was rotten! So, yes, I do like historical accuracy.

DH had me gobsmacked when he said they'd gone out of their way to cast Turner as "to make a point" but there has been no uproar from him when white actors play black roles. I was really disappointed in him.

We watched it and he actually took what he said back because she was bloody fantastic.

Nevertheless, he's still not recovered completely in my mind.

White people cannot play Black characters because doing blackface is racist

In this context the white actors would not apply blackface. They'd just be a white person playing a black character, but the actor is very obviously white.

@VladmirsPoutine

reverse racism?

The world's gone mad

This is what people say when they abruptly find themselves no longer able to air their racist views without any pushback.

This is what people say whenever they want to shut someone down. Call their views racist.

@WorriedMumsDontSleep

History tells us that Anne Boleyn was between 5’ and 5’3” tall. Pandering to political correctness by casting anyone over that height, like the 5’8” Turner-Smith, is offensive and wrong.

This would bother me.
As a blonde actress would.
As a busty actress would.

But usually doesn't come up because they cast with the general character look in mind.

Wow. Now we’re casting on the basis of breast size.