Casual racism or AIBU

[Kooksadooks]

Hello. I have a lot on my mind today but hope you are having a nice New Years Eve…
We (me, DP, MIL, FIL, DS ect) were sat around the TV over Christmas period.
The Channel 5 advert featuring Anne Bolelyn played by black actress Jodie Turner-Smith comes on and MIL starts complaining that she ‘doesn’t understand all this’ and ‘Anne Bolelyn wasn’t black’ and doesn’t understand ‘why white people cannot play black people’…
I bit my tongue, I appreciate that I am surrounded by people who agree with her and there’s no point in arguing with them about what I think, also not wanting to cause drama over Christmas but AIBU to feel uncomfortable at MIL’s comments?
I mentioned it to DP afterwards and he agrees with MIL

Your MIL might be casually racist at times (or she might not be) but not liking colour blind casting doesn’t mean you are racist. Some people think it jumps them out of the historical world the drama is trying to create, some people don’t. In this sense a drama about the Tudors is different than the TV adaption of Bridgerton, which is taking the Regency as a basis from which to create a fantasy world.

White actor Ben Kingsley won an Oscar for playing Mahatma Gandhi

Ben Kingsley isn't white. He's a light skinned mixed race man, his Father is Indian and his real name is Krishna.

This is what people say whenever they want to shut someone down. Call their views racist.

Tends to be said by racist people

@Anordinarymum

Although I believe Ben Kingsley played Ghandi :)

He did and it is wrong for him to have done so

@sst1234

But Ann Boleyn wasn’t black. It’s historically inaccurate to have a black actor play Ann Boleyn. This is the same nonsense as having a female James Bond - he wasn’t written as a woman. It’s just embarrassing virtue signalling to do this sort of stuff. Have stories of real black people ceased to exist? Is it impossible to write a story starting a real female spy? It’s actually racist to give minority and female actors the crumbs off the table, because it implies their own stories are not worthy of being told. It’s not racist to call out this nonsense.

I mean it isn't the same as a female James Bond, because James Bond wasn't a real person.

@Arethechildreninbedyet

White actor Ben Kingsley won an Oscar for playing Mahatma Gandhi

Ben Kingsley isn't white. He's a light skinned mixed race man, his Father is Indian and his real name is Krishna.

I didnt know this? Maybe it's not as wrong as I thought then 🤔

@Theunamedcat why wrong?

@JustAnotherPoster00

This is what people say whenever they want to shut someone down. Call their views racist.

Tends to be said by racist people

who dont like being confronted on their racism

I hit post to soon [eye roll]

I agree with your MIL -I’m black
I wouldn’t even bother to watch it as it wouldn’t ring true with me
Yes I know that she is an actress therefore acting a part and that’s what acting is
But I also know that AB was white so therefore a black actress playing her no matter how good an actress she is I wouldn’t bother watching it as I know it’s not accurate -
Just like I don’t want a women as James Bond as James Bond was written for a man to be the spy -007 😂

I agree that it's jarring for a black actress to play AB because we all know she was white. All stories whether in book or TV/film require us to suspend belief somewhat but that has a limit. Shows set around real historical characters will never be 100% accurate but there's a difference between slight differences (actress playing Liz 1 is 2 inches taller) and major differences (actress playing Liz 1 with brown or blonde hair) without some context. Some of us can cope with the differences, others can't.

Bridgerton did this beautifully by setting the context of the King having married a black woman. A 'What if?' scenario which feed into the back stories of some of the characters really well.

I agree with PP that instead of groups normally under represented in lead roles or roles in general getting the crumbs off the table there should be a push for new stories that include more people. We don't need another bloody rehash of something already done.

That said, I think you might have a DH problem OP.

Nothing casual about it. She’s an incredible actress.

My ex’s dad was homophobic and it started with little comments when same sex couples appeared on tv. Such an awkward and awful situation and it always reached peak at Christmas.

@Theunamedcat Ben Kingsley is mixed race, his father was Indian.

@Bagamoyo1

I agree with your MIL.

As someone said earlier, I think it’s sad that we keep on making films about white people, and allowing black actors to have the roles as a sort of consolation prize. We should be making films about BAME people - there are plenty of black/Asian historical figures - or creating new black characters.

I also hate Shakespeare productions which massively deviate from the original too - like productions of Romeo and Juliette with rival biker gangs.

Rather than trying to put a PC or “edgy” spin on old stories, why don’t writers create new stories which are more inclusive and multicultural?

Good question. People who think like this are rarely creative enough to bring new material forward. By definition, virtual signalling is about saying the right things, rarely about making an actual difference.

I'd like to see a broader portrayal of actual black characters in historical dramas because I don't think there were as few people of colour in Britain as our dramas suggest. It feels tokenistic to have a black Anne Boleyn though I am not black so would listen to what people who have had to live with such societal prejudices in this regard. I consider my own opinion to be largely irrelevant given my white privilege.

It’s actually racist to give minority and female actors the crumbs off the table, because it implies their own stories are not worthy of being told. It’s not racist to call out this nonsense.

This!

I've loved adaptations of Wuthering Heights and Oliver Twist with black characters but because they're fiction the characters could easily be any ethnicity.

Portraying historically white people using a different ethnicity is tokenism. Personally I'd rather hear the stories of historical black figures - there was a good Harriet Tubman film recently for example

@Notjustanymum

Your MIL’s argument falls down on the point that the actor playing Anne Boleyn is acting! I’m pretty sure that one of the requirements for David Tennant to play Dennis Nielsen WASN’T that he had actually lived as a serial killer for a while…

David Tennant looked very like Nielson in the series and he's Scottish so could do a convincing accent. If the whole cast of Anne Bolelyn had been black then that might have been less jarring.

Ben Kingsley was born Krishna Pandit Bhanji

So he was entitled to play the great man.

I find the difference between attitudes towards theatre and tv/film fascinating on this topic. People get up in arms over inaccuracy of casting on tv - whether it is height, hair colour, or race - but happily accept whatever in theatre performances. Diverse casts in Shakespeare performances are common, and as pp have said in SIX. But TV dramas and films are not inherently more accurate than plays so why do we care more?

As to Jodie Turner-Smith, I have said on previous threads that actually I don't mind the innacuracy so much because it is so blindingly obvious it is inaccurate. It is a massive signpost that you are watching drama and it is likely to be inaccurate... I find dramas that try to be visually accurate far more insidious because people take them at face value because they look right when they might still be hugely inaccurate. I always use the film Elizabeth as an example. It looks plausible as a film but it would be shorter to list what is accurate about it than inaccurate. Unlike Jodie T-S though you actually need some knowledge of the period to know that. It also does things like depict loyal men as executed traitors which would probably have pissed them off quite a lot (but we're ok with that because it is just fiction and is about people from hundreds of years ago).

@toddybell

I'm black and I agree with your MIL. Anne Boleyn wasn't Black so should be played by someone who factually represented who she was re: ethnicity . I'd feel the same if someone white came along and played Martin Luther King or Mary Jane Seacole or Harriet Seacole or Mahatma Ghandi, etc.

I agree! It would be absurd for a white man to play the part of the above.

Another example: Barak Obama played by Colin Firth ... Well they’re both 60 but it would be utterly ridiculous.

@TyrannosaurusRegina I agree with you - I’m black
I tend to find with stuff like this the black / mixed race people are a bit like
WTF - when I did history AB was white 😂
And the white people are oh it’s fine it’s great it’s inclusive - virtual signalling that it’s all cool 😂
She may be a great actress for is it actor now if I’m being non binary 😂
But it isn’t accurate of factual history and as a black person I actually find it a bit insulting

Because her breast size was relevant to the story.
Henry's love letters to her reference her little duckies. People were dismissive of her beauty in her own time because she defied the convention of red or gold hair, pale skin and curvaceous.
As a slim dark eyed beauty she was different at the time.
So yes, breast size matters.

I've loved adaptations of Wuthering Heights and Oliver Twist with black characters but because they're fiction the characters could easily be any ethnicity.

Portraying historically white people using a different ethnicity is tokenism. Personally I'd rather hear the stories of historical black figures - there was a good Harriet Tubman film recently for example

Very well put!

I really couldn't get into a movie if Tom Hanks was playing Martin Luther King.

However, I would personally prefer to see more stories of actual black British people than another yet retelling of Anne Boleyn. Can even be Tudors if we have to stick with that period just not Anne!

I agree with your MIL in that Anne Boleyn's ethnicity - and quite a lot about her appearance - is known. Accuracy in historical writing/depiction matters to me, as far as it is possible

I completely agree. I would be similarly disappointed with a white actor playing Mohammed Ali.