To tell DM and DF they have to start living again

[marykitty]

DM and DF have a deep, paralyzing fear of covid.
They are afraid to die, so they are not living anymore.
They are still young, 60 years old, 3x vaccine...they are still in deep lockdown, every single day since the beginning.
In 2 years i saw them maybe twice, after PCR testing (i am also fully vaccinated, and DH as well)

We had plan to see them beginning of january. We live far away and the plan was for them to come here and stay 1 week.
For them, we started to completely isolate ourself for 10 days...but it is still not enough, yesterday they called me and they canceled on us because they feel it's too dangerous.

I am heartbroken. I feel so sad for them. I feel so sad for my DCs. I want to scream at them and tell them that the years are not coming back. But would it be fair? Would it be the right thing to do? Should I "wake them up" or should I understand them?

We are very aware of covid dangers and we respect all guidelines (and even more, when I feel they are not enough) but we still need to live.

I miss my family. Since they canceled i am sort of avoiding their messages because I don't know what to say. They say they are very sad not to see us, and I believe them, i think they are just petrified.

To give more background:
I have a 2yo and a 2 months old kid.
My DM is an hoarder and they live in a 2 bedroom flat full of stuff.
We have a house with a guest room and separated bathroom, therefore is better if they come visit us.

Let them be. They want to be around for another 20-30 years and are prepared to stay in and take precautions now so they can live to old age.
It shocks me how blasé some people are about Covid. It can still kill you if you are vaxxed and it can definitely give you long Covid and ruin your life. Your parents may be only 60 but they are at a greater risk than you OP.

It is sad that you don't get to see them though and I think your offer to self isolate for 10 days first is a good one. However, I don't blame them for canceling right now in the middle of the Omicron wave. Hopefully in a few months things well have settled and they will feel safe visiting you.

@Budapestdreams

Let them be. They want to be around for another 20-30 years and are prepared to stay in and take precautions now so they can live to old age. It shocks me how blasé some people are about Covid. It can still kill you if you are vaxxed and it can definitely give you long Covid and ruin your life. Your parents may be only 60 but they are at a greater risk than you OP.

It is sad that you don't get to see them though and I think your offer to self isolate for 10 days first is a good one. However, I don't blame them for canceling right now in the middle of the Omicron wave. Hopefully in a few months things well have settled and they will feel safe visiting you.

Do you understand that the risk of catching it wont change though over the next 20-30 years? People who are waiting for government to say that there is no longer a risk of catching it will be waiting the rest of their lives.

You can't "wake them up ". Nothing you say will change how they are now. Lets fact it - older people ( I'm one of them) have been told over and over that they are vulnerable, they are most likely to die . No wonder the average older person feels rather unsafe. If your parents want to isolate themselves, I doubt that you'll be able to change that . Best wishes but I think it will be hard.

@Clarissa76

I wonder whether you could possibly speak to their GP about your concerns. It does sound like some sort of anxiety disorder/agoraphobia.

Fgs, they are not children, they are fully capacitated adults, what do you think the GP would do?

Why are you allowed to choose your level of risk but your parents aren't?

That's so sad OP, they're missing out on so much. I know someone in their late 70s like this which is bad enough, but your parents are only 60!

@Sugarplumfairy65

Why are you allowed to choose your level of risk but your parents aren't?

The OP hasnt said that. She loves her parents, and she recognises that their risk perception is severely skewed.

That's very sad. I suspect there's more to it than covid though. Perhaps they've been cooped up for so long that the outside world feels frightening.

I am reminded of a verse from the Bette Midler song, The Rose:

"It's the heart, afraid of breaking
That never learns to dance.
It's the dream, afraid of waking
That never takes the chance.
It's the one who won't be taken
Who cannot seem to give,
And the soul afraid of dying
That never learns to live.

Can you coax them out into their garden and "meet" them there to begin with? Just getting outside might make them feel a little better.

You can't say anything that will change their minds. They sound absolutely bonkers (sorry) and I can imagine their behaviour is very upsetting for you. But they have chosen irrational fear over you. But if you wanted to give it one last shot of losing your temper with them and pointing out how daft they are then I'd go for it so at least you've tried.

I’m so sorry OP, I cannot imagine how devastating and frustrating this must be. You’ve essentially lost your parents whilst they’re still living.

They don’t sound well at all. Could you write a letter outlining everything you have said here, explain how you feel it’s damaging your relationship and what you want from them. Say the door is always open and that you love them and unfortunately OP I think that’s all you can do.

It’s really sad and I do get why you’re upset and frustrated. And I think isolating for 10 days over Christmas in preparation for their visit was really accommodating of you. But even so, it feels like it was always going to be unlikely two such anxious people would be happy to make a long journey and stay with others during this period of high infection rates.

@GoodnightGrandma

They are using Covid as an excuse to live as they want to. Leave them to it.

This is probably it, unfortunately. No amount of talking is likely to persuade them. Having control of their own lives in their own small, cluttered world is more important to them than seeing their family. The more you try to pull them, the more they want to stay in their safe little bunker. Accept this and you’ll be able to free yourself from all this isolating and testing that you’re doing in the hope of persuading them to come.

To be honest your kids will not benefit from the company of such obsessed, preoccupied people. Young children pick up other people’s anxiety. It wouldn’t be a happy visit.

It’s sad that this is happening but it’s not your fault and as pp have said, there’s nothing you can say that will make them have a more sensible perspective. Almost certainly the Covid issue has just compounded anxieties and fears that they already had, rather than being the whole problem. The hoarding is part of it.

@shakingmytambourineatyou

I blame the media for a lot of this. 24 hour scare stories and hysteria build up. I am sorry for you as I don't know if they will change. Maybe when the media move on to the next thing, they will start to calm down. Sometimes people mistake existing for living. Perhaps start showing them facts about how it's just a cold for most people.

A lot of people have said this over the last year or so but I think the media has a responsibility to e.g. report # of deaths, report spread etc, and there were certainly points of this pandemic where it was quite rightly a 24-hour news item (maybe I'm biased though, I'm a journalist - not in mainstream news! )

I think the problem is largely that most people have a reasonably poor ability to calculate risk and extract emotion from fact.

(I say this as someone who has erred on the side of over-cautious during the pandemic - I'm not saying everyone who's been worried is an oversensitive idiot who can't see the truth.)

I also think it's the case on both 'sides' of this pandemic. I know plenty of people who've had a poor judge of risk and felt emotionally they shouldn't be "contained" or "oppressed" by the Government, have gone to parties during the depths of lockdown or at the height of peaks, and then been surprised they've got Covid. Or surprised this kids' school is closed. Etc etc. Equally, I know plenty of people who are still flinching at coming into hearing distance of another person in Tesco and feel terrified to catch the virus.

We're not good at rational, fact-led decision making a lot of the time because we're led by emotion.

"It's just a cold for most people" isn't useful in that case when some people will read that as "Not everyone then, so some people die and I could be one of them".

Equally, saying there's 'a risk' of death or long-term illness to others might cause them to hear it as "but 'a risk' isn't everyone so I'm good".

Add in natural human personality differences, tendencies to anxiety or laidback-ness, and something that the majority of the people on the planet are aware of, and you're going to get all kinds of responses play out on a massive scale like the world's biggest, saddest Buzzfeed 'What Kind Of Pandemic Person Are You?' personality quiz.

I thought you were going to say they were late 80's! 60 is relatively young and I would be frustrated too.

My mum is 66 and worked in a school through covid, she's just retired and is never in. My dad is 80 and I've worried about him catching covid, even more worried now he's just bought himself a motorbike and is also never in!

@hivemindneeded

I think you could have a firm but kind word. You are allowed to tell them how you feel. Say you have been isolating for days in preparation for their visit. This has been hard for DC and you are extremely upset that they are now backing down. I think it would be fair to say the years aren't coming backThe DC will be grown and never know them if they don't agree to take reasonable risks with approrpiate safety measures. If they drive to see you in their own car, after all of you have done LFTs, if they don't stop at services on the way, they just are not at risk.

They may need to you to be blunt to wake them up from the rigid fear they have built up. I honestly think the mental illness that has occurred is as destructive as the virus.

I have to agree with this and it would definitely form the basis of my pretty blunt response.

I have to say, this type of thing is one of the many reasons why I don't think we should ever have another lockdown, Covid or no Covid.

Personally, I would like to see it fade from the news completely with just occasional updates, or figures and statistics available to those who want them rather than being shoved down our throats daily. Not that I think Covid will be going away (it won't), but the mental health crisis that it has caused and continues to cause now needs to be dealt with. Help needs to be provided to those who need it and that probably means that the government and media obsession with publishing scary statistics almost daily needs to stop.

People react in different ways. Far too many on this thread have no idea. If your family, friends or randoms want to stay away then just leave them. Most probably do not have a entrenched mental illness and will be okay when covid is not such a threat. Covid is a massive threat to many.

Yes, we have to live with covid but to many, it's a process and takes time.

Also why do you get to decide that they aren't living their life, staying at home is a valid and happy choice for many people. Lots of introverts have used covid to live their lives how they truly want. And why shouldn't they? Why is being out and social seen as the only correct way to live?

Good luck to those thinking a Dr would help with hoarding or covid fear. If a schizophrenic can't get help on the NHS, do you really think someone with anxiety will? Try getting help for anxiety, hoarding and ocd in non covid times, let alone now !!!

I recognise the sadness of the op and others but use Skype, WhatsApp and zoom. Pretend they live in Australia. If they did you would be using these and deem that as good enough contact. It just needs a change of mindset. If they can't or won't change their mind, then you have to change yours, otherwise the relationship will really fail.

If they are hoarders there is probably mental health issues and they have latched in to COVID as an excuse to be reclusive. I would definitely be frustrated and try and wake them up but it won't make any difference

I'm their age and also triple vaxxed. I live in London so have cancelled a couple of theatre trips where the venue hasn't required a vaccine passport and I'm avoiding tube travel but apart from that it's pretty much business as usual. My adult (vaccinated) DC have been in and out, I've had (vaccinated) friends over with windows open and I've been to some local bars/restaurants. It's not quite as sociable as a normal Christmas but it's much better than last year. I do a LFT before going to public places or visiting my elderly mother. Like PP have said, this virus is here to stay and we need to find a way to live with it. We can't hide away indefinitely.

I think it's interesting you say your parents are hoarders. My mum is a hoarder too and she was very like your parents are last year. Although she, DH and I could have been in a bubble she insisted on staying home on her own and not letting anyone in her house. That lasted until July when she had a nasty fall requiring hospitalisation. I wonder if it's something to do with the hoarding? That their roomfuls of junk give them some sense of security and control and they don't want to leave that?

Since Mum's fall she has moved into a retirement flat nearer me and her house full of junk has been cleared and sold. She chose to take very little with her. Just the bare essentials, some photos and three ornaments. When she first moved into the flat she had a new lease of life and was going out nearly every day for a bus ride or a walk to the shops. She even attended a couple of social events and things were looking much brighter for her but recently she's been withdrawing again and I wonder if it's connected to the fact she's started to accumulate 'stuff' again? It's like a miser not wanting to leave his precious gold, although in Mum's case it's not piles of gold but bags of unused, unopened tat from Primark, Poundland and the like.

@TheWomandestroyed To me they sound deeply unwell and likely to become more so. Living in such an extreme way is absolutely something the GP should be aware of.

Theyre grown adults and we are far into this pandemic now. Your opinion is more likely to make them defensive than anything else, sadly

So from the hoarding alone, I would gather that your mother has some complex mental health issues. Is she getting support for an underlying MH condition? Anxiety?

Seemingly, Covid & lockdown has given your mother (& your father as carer or with his own MH issues?) a basis to withdraw further from the threat of the outside world & dig deeper into their isolation.

If so, this problem is bigger than you encouraging them or anyone waving a magic post-Covid recovery sparkly wand over them.

I suggest that you speak with their GP to express your concerns. Patient confidentiality will allow for your concerns to be heard.

I agree with flirtygirl. Why is being out and about socialising regarded as the only way to live?

I'm retired, have no timetable to do anything, and quite happy to stay home more, especially over the festive season.

@velvetvixen not going out because you don’t enjoy it is one thing, cutting off from seeing your family is completely different.

And yes@GaolBhoAlba is right @Budapestdreams - people are more or less as safe from covid now as they’ll get. It’s an endemic virus. Drugs/vaccines might improve but who knows what the timescale on that will be. If you have 25 years left how much of it is worth the sacrifice to keep any of it? Especially as older people are more at risk of other illnesses. Let’s say in a year cases are lower and treatments are better and you’ve spent 3 years isolating in your mid 60s, you then have a normal year but then struck down with cancer which is a long illness and once you’re through it you’re not as sprightly as before, would the 3 years isolating from something that had a low risk of killing you have been worth it?

I think it is sad and I say that as someone who is suffering from Long Covid and has done since the start of the pandemic. I'm cautious and I'm not going out to theatres or cinemas right now, or the pub, with Covid rates what they are right now.

But I wouldn't think of not seeing family, and the same is true of both my DM and MIL, who are 82 and 81 respectively. We're all triple jabbed and take lateral flow tests when necessary.

Lockdown was very damaging to our (adopted) DDs aged 12 and 9, so I wouldn't want to see that happen again.

I agree with PPs that your parents' anxieties are being fuelled by their MH issues. Sadly, I don't think there's anything you can do, other than stay in touch via Zoom or WhatsApp and maybe bring up the subject with them again once this Omicron wave has passed, which it's expected to do in a reasonably short time.

Can you work on building them up to getting back to real life? Go and stay in a hotel nearby and plan some outdoor walks together? Agree to wear masks if it will reassure them.

Progress to maybe a pub garden with a marquee for a meal. They probably need crutches to help them feel relaxed - mask wearing, testing, lots of handwashing, distancing so suggest all if this and then working reducing the distancing etc.

You might be able to continue a phases approach until they might agree to a short indoor visit etc and they more they do this the better they should feel. But take it slow.