To think the Guardian is a joke re: JK Rowling?

[Firesidefox]

So, the Guardian was running a 'person of the year' poll, and I voted for JK Rowling for her bravery in standing up to the extremist wing of the trans lobby.

I went to have a look to see when the results were out, and they've deactivated the poll! According to Twitter, it's because JK Rowling was the out and out winner.

If this is the case, this is PATHETIC.

"In late 90s London?"

Then you weren't specific and the debate regarding immigration and not being listened to has been focused around EU migrants and the referendum.

Also how are you blaming late 90s London on Labour when at best they would have been in power 2 years.

Funding for schools increased dramatically throughout the 00s. I was in a school in Newcastle in the late 00s that had students from many deprived backgrounds and we did exceptionally well as we were able to provide the services they needed.

I don't see your link between new Labour, who launched sure start, increased school funding, increased funding in deprived areas, and in London launched the London Challenge for schools.

"And you mentioned immigration but as others have pointed out it was about resources in communities where the narrative has always been ‘there’s no money’"

Immigration was originally mentioned as a reason for voting for leave and then the tories.

@JohnHuffam1812.
John, you can talk about successes (Newcastle /sure start) but to not recognise that no system is perfect and that London is a completely different dynamic to the North is just disingenuous.

We know that surestart in certain areas was dominated by cliches of m/c women who had moved into those areas as part of gentrification. I’m not critical of that but I am critical of services that knew that many W/c /immigrants would be intimidated in that setting and avoided it. There is little that can be done about that at a policy level but there are schools now doing interventions for parents as the problems became apparent in the children once they started schools.

This isn’t beyond the imagination of people to recognise - esp at community level. As I say, I am from a London borough and moved back as a graduate and I can’t get into those circles in my own area as it became quite them and us. It’s bizarre to me but in most communities there are a mix of all sorts of people and there has always been a narrative in those communities that bound people together over common behaviour/practice. To denigrate that and to attack those who challenged the denigration , particularly in areas that were very multicultural was an extraordinary mistake. It showed that much of what was going on was the theatre of change in some places but not real change.

My example of the schools is meant to illustrate that at a real, functioning level within all of that time, nothing of substance had been built when it was desperately needed. Areas that were already at breaking point, broke.

Why can’t people realise this? We had to leave. The area became too violent , my father was badly attacked and to this day we are still dealing with the consequences. It was an exchange, not an uplift and imv, the people who paid the highest price were the already vulnerable - immigrants (Windrush), second gen migrants, elderly and those traditionally marginalised in the community.

Children on FSM in London out perform all other FSM children in the country and London school recieved massive investment due to the London challenge.
I have read chavs by Owen Jones and agree that the langauge used to describe the working class is terrible.

But its the Tories and the Tory press that do it.

Yea, absolutely - but

1. that London uplift left a lot behind (and there is so much more to it)

2. the left simply took a position of despising w/c for being gullible and falling for right wing rhetoric instead of recognising the hidden poverty that kept them in the line of fire of Daily Mail/online sources of information

3. the FSM myth needs to be challenged. Many families exist just above the benefit level but do not have a secure finances particularly in cities as wealthy as London. I was much more comfortable in the north on less than in London on a ‘good’ salary.

We can do this all day but my point still stands - why can’t the left acknowledge these things fully? What are they concerned about? The only way for Labour to regain members and voters is to be open about this. Starmer has addresses the Jewish issue and tried to create a way back for those who felt they had to leave (to the best of my knowledge). Young people who supported Corbyn need to be heard (and are simply saying the very things that old Labour supporters said but were vilified for). To talk about able, healthy and dynamic communities doing better whilst some poorer communities got significantly worse is a real kick in the teeth to those of us politically lost, ambitious, renting, concerned about the practicalities of the future.

Point 2 is utter fallacious. There was never thar narrative during the new Labour years. You're being revisionist. Yes labour really despised the working class, minimum wages, better working protections (especially for women and agency workers), EMA for poorer kids, and so on.

1. What fsm myth? Children on fsm in London (so actually worse off in terms of household income in costs compared to the rest of the country) do better than fsm Children in the rest of the country. London schools out perform schools win any other region.

You're constructing your own narrative here.

You keep banging on about this and you may be right, but you're failing to see the difference between reality and perception. It almost doesn't matter if you're right if the prevailing narrative/perception is elsewhere. Overtons window maybe?
Labour have failed to address that gap too, again, they may have tried to, but the message is not getting through. Perhaps the frustration behind that leads to the sense that they are annoyed with voters getting it 'wrong'.
I grew up in the south but live in the north. It feels as if the 'north' is a long way from the decisions made in London.

No ChardonnayPD there is Brexit because the ERG saw an opportunity to avoid the new EU tax rules coming and Boris saw an opportunity to be PM by backing leave.

UK media went hard on blaming EU immigrants and suddenly everyone thought their problems would be solved by Brexiting. I’m sure I remember you being a vocal leave supporter on all the Brexit threads at the time.

Anyway it’s your Brexit mess not mine because I did not vote for it and I won’t be hanging around the UK to find out how bad it’s going to be.

Also JKR is fab and judging by her Twitter feed, she doesn’t regret standing up for women and girls for a minute.

The narrative is set by the media, and of course by social media, which is easy to manipulate. It also allows people to confirm their bias.

I actually see almost the same messages getting used both here and the states, as part of the "look what you made me do" excuse, its amazing how the narrative has been so well managed that the same message comes across.

"It feels as if the north is a long way from the south" yes and which party was it has slashed funding in the north to such an extent? Which party is it that has changed its mind on HS2 and infrastructure upgrades?

But its Labour's fault

It feels as if the north is a long way from the south" yes and which party was it has slashed funding in the north to such an extent? Which party is it that has changed its mind on HS2 and infrastructure upgrades?

But its Labour's fault

Bizarre isn't it. But this is my point too.

@Beamur

You'd have to be not paying attention to the issues, or trying to hide real motives to be using it.

Bringing the discussion back to where it started, this is the same process as JKR has experienced. She says something which is not actually wrong, but jars to the prevailing narrative of some people. Is thus now roundly dismissed as having the wrong kind of opinions and thoughts by people who often haven't read what was said. No amount of truth or rebuttal will sway that.
The Guardian 'story' isn't really about them pulling a poll that wasn't a poll. It's about how they are seen by many people now as having lost their reputation as being an objective news outlet.
It's a common phenomena. Not a great one.

I dont think "nonce" means what you think it does @Uabsolutelifelessnonce.

[quote JohnHuffam1812]@Beamur

You'd have to be not paying attention to the issues, or trying to hide real motives to be using it.[/quote]
Yes. I think that's entirely possible.
Lots of people don't pay attention, or look too deeply into any given issue - but might still be willing to hold strong opinions about it (vaccination for example).
Hiding motives, well, they don't even need to be terribly well hidden a lot of the time. Power/money/influence..

Generally all parties despise their core vote. After all, if someone consistently votes for you no matter how many times you kick them in the balls, why would you not grow to despise them ? Their support is assured.

It's the people that wouldn't normally vote for you that you need to bribe attract. After all, if you don't you won't win.

So we've seen Labour courting the middle classes, and Tories courting the working classes. Both at the expense of their original "core" demographic.

Of course no one needs court the upper classes. Their position is assured.

I don't think you can really say Labour didn't court the working class. there were so many policies in the last manifesto that would benefit working people, and those living outside of London.

But the media narrative is set as " Labour have abandoned the working classes" and repeition just entrenches that.

I give up, John.

Policy is one thing. Implementation is another. They are distinct. One was successful, the other not always depending on area.

London Challenge was successful, which negates your point about education in London. Many other Labour policies were successful too, which of course led to more children being lifted out of poverty and better outcomes over all.

As repeatedly discussed the stuff you say about despising the working classes is just not true and an internet narrative that doesn't bear scrutiny.

Then why do they keep losing elections?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=uYQ73Amrgs8

I'm sure if there was a simple answer to my question Labour advisors would have figured it out by now...