To wonder why this attitude towards marriage for men still exists?! [hmm]

[GreenGreenTreesOfHome]

NC for this as I don't want it linking with my other posts.

There was a man on Family Fortunes yesterday, who said he wants to treat his parents to a holiday for their 50th wedding anniversary if he wins some decent money. He said 'my dad has had 2 life sentences, he deserves the break!' He said NOTHING about his mum.

It really REALLY fucking pissed me off. He thought he was funny, Gino just looked a bit and it was pretty much like tumbleweed in the TV studio (with a couple of quiet nervous giggles,) but it made me so furious.

Why is it a 'life sentence' for a man to be married for a long time, but an achievement, and something to be celebrated for a woman? I thought this horrible, wanky attitude had been consigned to the history books.

But no, for men, it's still a tedious chore to be married apparently, and a 'ball and chain' and a 'life sentence!' Yet it's OK for women to be married, and as I say, it's classed as an achievement, and something to be celebrated for HER.

I have heard many times in the past actually, that men are healthier and happier when they're married, and actually get more out of marriage than women do. So why is this bullshit still a thing?

So cringey and cliched

Lol. Okay. Better put me on the cancellation list too, then.

@Mulhollandmagoo my FIL refers to my house as my husband’s house, also. Only with him it’s very much an attempt to put me firmly in my place. It doesn’t work and he isn’t clever enough to come out on top in the verbal skirmishes he attempts to incite.

[quote Toomanyradishes]@yungwaffle no you have misunderstood me. You said in a couple without children men get their assets taken off them and have to pay a monthly payment on divorce. In the uk at least thats bullshit and appears to come from an assumption that women bring no assets to a relationship and pay towards no assets in a relationship. Its sexist bullshit that perpetuates a 1950s image of women as housewives.

Men are not having to be dragged down the aisle kicking and screaming because they are scared they will have to pay spousal maintenance if they get divorced. Some men and women perpetuate the attitude that the man is the breadwinner that the woman is lucky to have pinned down into marriage before she turns into a nagging shrew. Because men never nag and women bring nothing to the marriage[/quote]
Since the financial crisis and subsequently the benefit reforms of the Coalition and Conservative Governments, it has become increasingly unlikely that the "breadwinner" would pay spousal maintenance anyway. In the "old days" you could look at a 40 year old bloke earning the average wage and think "yep, he'll earn that until he retires" and the average 40 year old woman with kids and think "well, no one is going to hire her." That's the era when spousal maintenance was popular and it sort of persisted whilst people on good incomes could be assumed to stay on good incomes in the boom years of the late 1990s and early 2000s.

Income is seen as much less secure now for all kinds of reasons (offshoring, automation, Brexit) and assumptions cannot be made that the "breadwinner" will "just earn it back." The risk that a "high earner" could lose their job and never get another one paying the same has risen substantially. The hyperinflation in housing costs further frustrates matters, as the needs of the payer have increased (gone are the days that the higher earner could be expected to downsize to a flat in order to have money left for spousal. Now it's just the assumption that it's all they're going to be able to afford anyway).

Also, universal credit falls £ for £ on spousal maintenance received so recipients need to get more from their ex than they could from UC for it to be worthwhile. For the lowest earners, this could be as much as £800 a month before they even notice the extra income so the person paying it has to be earning a lot for it to be affordable.

The only avenue out of hardship is therefore for the SAHP to get a job, which is closer to the societal norm. That's why I think when judges refuse to award spousal or solicitors recommend it isn't pursued, they're doing the potential recipient a favour. The recipient will be far better off sharing childcare in order to be able to work more themselves as it gives them control over their income.

I don’t like these comments, and in my experience it’s generally older men who make them. I find that if you respond to this sort of thing with ‘Oh you say that, but I know how much you love Audrey/Mavis/Carol, she’s such a lovely woman’ they invariably agree and stop with the nonsense. It’s all silly bravado, goodness only knows why they feel the need to say these things.

@LuaDipa

I don’t like these comments, and in my experience it’s generally older men who make them. I find that if you respond to this sort of thing with ‘Oh you say that, but I know how much you love Audrey/Mavis/Carol, she’s such a lovely woman’ they invariably agree and stop with the nonsense. It’s all silly bravado, goodness only knows why they feel the need to say these things.

I think you're right about it being older men. My generation would never say something like that let alone find it funny. It's old fashioned humour from before we were born.

Statistically married men and single women live the longest which doesn't surprise me at all. So many men are waited on hand and foot, they have no conception of how their life would be without the woman in their life.

I've been reading more and more posts on here from women who say they've had enough and although they wouldn't say no to a FWB, they won't contemplate sharing their homes with a man again. I don't blame them.

Yes it’s shit. Why are older opposite sex couples so often in this weird dialogue of the men being “nagged” and “ground down” by being married to someone? It’s bollocks. When the wife eventually leaves the miserable old bugger she’s been propping up for years, nine times out of ten it’s him who becomes a barely functioning alcoholic and her who has a whole new lease of life.

Which suggests that it was definitely mum who was on life sentence in the first place.

I've said it about my husband, only in front of him, fgs, lighten up

Marriage has huge benefits for men….it seems to be a free housekeeper, free Nanny situation for lots of men I know. If I had daughters (I don’t) I’d tell them to think very carefully before getting married. I can’t see many benefits to marriage for young women in heterosexual relationships - other than the law seems to protects married women more than unmarried ones in the event of separation!!

The protection of marriage really only kicks in when the shit hits the fan.

My DH benefitted from the protections when his first wife died very young. Widowed parents allowance (although it’s now much less generous) really helped with suddenly having to change career (she worked days and he worked nights), as did inheritance rules.

I hate that kind of attitude as well OP - like women 'trap' men in miserable marriages because obviously men should be free to go around shagging everyone really. Whereas, as others have said, there's so much evidence as to the way it massively benefits men and has the opposite effect for women, which us the really galling bit when people still insist in this attitude.

It harks back to a time when a woman was reliant on a man so it meant him giving up 'his' money.

@swimlyn

And finally: it’s easy to spot the hidden men on this thread, isn’t it?
God yes!

It's children that tip the balance, IMO
Once a couple has children, then the fathers seem to enjoy the best of both worlds: they have a partner who (often) works and who does a lot, if not all, of the wifework
Women with children seem to end up taking on so much that it really does become a lengthy sentence

It used to be the norm for married women to suffer in silence at being treated like servants, but thanks to the internet and forums like this, the myth that women adore being married and have few other aspirations other than to 'bag a man' is slowly being challenged.
Too slowly, IMO

[quote FredWinnie]@swimlyn

And finally: it’s easy to spot the hidden men on this thread, isn’t it?
God yes!

It's children that tip the balance, IMO
Once a couple has children, then the fathers seem to enjoy the best of both worlds: they have a partner who (often) works and who does a lot, if not all, of the wifework
Women with children seem to end up taking on so much that it really does become a lengthy sentence

It used to be the norm for married women to suffer in silence at being treated like servants, but thanks to the internet and forums like this, the myth that women adore being married and have few other aspirations other than to 'bag a man' is slowly being challenged.
Too slowly, IMO[/quote]
Whilst I think statistically it is more common for women to end up doing most of the housework in dual income households (and should be the norm where they are the SAHP and the hours of labour are divided equally between a couple), from my own experience and that of many of my male colleagues suggests that it is not absolute.

First of all, we need to slay a myth. Being a SAHP to school age children is not equivalent to a full time job. If it was, SAHPs in divorce cases wouldn't be expected to go out and work and maximise their earning capacity when their children reach school age and single parents similarly would not be expected to work on pain of losing their benefits. Also, before people pile on me for saying something "controversial" read the rest.

My STBXW was a SAHP and up until lockdown would do most of the housework and childcare. Since lockdown began two things happened.

1. I learned just how much time she sat on her backside doing nothing each day. I guess SAHPs can fill a day cleaning, cooking, making up activities for their kids etc but they certainly don't have to;

2. I gradually picked up most of the chores including washing up, laundry, vacuuming, cleaning, cooking, sitting with kids to do homework etc etc. I could fit it around my full time job but it meant my SAHP STBXW did even less than before.

Nevertheless, lazy stereotypes about men and women will no doubt continue to be peddled especially by SAHPs who want to avoid the world of work after a divorce.

@FutureExH it's anecdotal I admit but in my experience it isn't a lazy stereotype but more often than not the reality. Perhaps not in your situation but many others.

I have very young (not school age) kids and am temporarily at home while retraining (having given up a career where I was - just - the higher earner to facilitate his career move around the kids) but to it would probably take a few years of sitting on my bum with school age kids to catch up with my DH's free time, although ultimately I am very grateful that he supports us financially and overall our marriage is ok. He gets at least two hours to himself every night, his hours aren't that long either, practically unlimited hobby time at the weekends, and a full night's sleep every night. I have done virtually every night wake for two children for nearly four years, neither child sleeps through, and have almost never left the house without one or both kids. I haven't done my hobby since my eldest was born, haven't had any nights out, and never have any downtime in the evening as that's my time to study and it is considered entirely my responsibility to find time for, even though it means I can't go to bed early despite often being woken five or more times a night on my own.

Yet I'm always being told how lucky I am because he sometimes cooks, and often comes for a walk with us at the weekends! I'm glad to be with my children while they are so little, and to have the opportunity to retrain now, but if he leaves me tomorrow I'll be ruined financially whereas his career has sailed without any childcare concerns and ample time to sleep and relax to support this career. I'm sure I'll recover mine eventually but there will be nobody to make sure the children are thought about while I'm free to commit to whatever is needed

[quote ChristmasDay2021]@FutureExH it's anecdotal I admit but in my experience it isn't a lazy stereotype but more often than not the reality. Perhaps not in your situation but many others.

I have very young (not school age) kids and am temporarily at home while retraining (having given up a career where I was - just - the higher earner to facilitate his career move around the kids) but to it would probably take a few years of sitting on my bum with school age kids to catch up with my DH's free time, although ultimately I am very grateful that he supports us financially and overall our marriage is ok. He gets at least two hours to himself every night, his hours aren't that long either, practically unlimited hobby time at the weekends, and a full night's sleep every night. I have done virtually every night wake for two children for nearly four years, neither child sleeps through, and have almost never left the house without one or both kids. I haven't done my hobby since my eldest was born, haven't had any nights out, and never have any downtime in the evening as that's my time to study and it is considered entirely my responsibility to find time for, even though it means I can't go to bed early despite often being woken five or more times a night on my own.

Yet I'm always being told how lucky I am because he sometimes cooks, and often comes for a walk with us at the weekends! I'm glad to be with my children while they are so little, and to have the opportunity to retrain now, but if he leaves me tomorrow I'll be ruined financially whereas his career has sailed without any childcare concerns and ample time to sleep and relax to support this career. I'm sure I'll recover mine eventually but there will be nobody to make sure the children are thought about while I'm free to commit to whatever is needed[/quote]
I think it's common enough to be "a thing" and I can easily think of men I know who didn't pull their weight around the house (mostly men who are older than me). I also know plenty of stay at home parents - mostly women - who do a fantastic job and work just as hard or harder than their "breadwinner" spouses. However, that does not mean these stereotypes should have any place in our laws that should treat every case as unique but I fear that unfortunately they do. Breadwinners who pull their weight lose out the most; stay-at-home-parents who do the bare minimum gain the most.

All this used to be water off a duck's back when my STBXW used to make comments about how I had "so much free time." It was true I spent time commuting and I guess that was "free time" although I'm not sure how I'd have gotten to work otherwise! However, I regularly had to log on and work in the evenings too whilst she watched telly all night. I assumed she had been busy all day and was tired until lockdown. That's when I learned that the school runs, a load of laundry, a cleaning job like vacuuming the whole house and making the DDs dinner was about 3 hours work maximum a day.

Don't get me wrong. I know being a SAHP can be monotonous. I often spent the entire weekend (when they weren't at school) looking after the DDs on my own before we separated because she felt like going out. Obviously I do a lot more than that on my own now! It's still nothing like the stress and demand of keeping a well paid job though. SAHPs who envy their spouses' lives need to grow up and learn empathy. It's a privilege to be able to quit work and bring your own children up that less and less people can do because their partners don't earn enough. SAHPs also need to fact check their opinions on the free time of their earning spouses. I know I spent most of the time I was accused of "doing nothing" with "fun" jobs like renewing insurance, paying bills, checking bank accounts, replying to school letters, helping with homework and all the other crap that comes with being an adult that my STBXW was oblivious to.

Jeez, who rattled your cage?

Apparently the happiest people are married men and single women. So I think it’s factually incorrect as much as misogynistic.

@FutureExH you’re comparing apples with oranges. A SAHP to school age children may well be easier than a full time demanding job. A SAHP to babies/ toddlers / and preschoolers isn’t. Especially as the poster you’re replying to is also retraining in the evenings!

Also you’re taking your particular STBXW and assuming others are like her -‘or your interpretation of her.

I hear you @FutureExH

But it's not quite as straight as you say. Yes, with the right job/role being a FT working parent it can be manageable.

However, babies through 3 years old are no walk in the park. Add multiple kids across a few age ranges, and it's very hard. What I'm trying to say, is SAHP ranges from easy mode to nightmare mode. And it can be nightmare mode for many years.

Still, my experience is similar to yours. I've been RP to a singleton of school age for over 4 years. Yes. It's easy-ish to manage the house and mental load, and my work role enables it. I consider myself (and my child) fortunate that is the case though. It might not be unheard of, but it's certainly not the most common scenario.

I understand the points you are making @FutureExH but think your experience is less typical. I would add that many women who have stepped back in some way from work do know what it is like to have a demanding job - I used to work far longer hours than my DH does in leading a team in a high pressure setting, my work phone was never off, I worked incredibly hard to climb the corporate ladder. But I did get some down time, even if not every day, and that made a difference. Incidentally, I'll never be able to return to that industry now in the same way, despite all that.

Like I said - I'm clear and appreciative of the privilege, but making an observation that my DH has free time (I promise that he does not spend two hours a night or a whole day at weekends with school applications or whatever, not least because I do them!) whereas I do not ever, but I'm considered lucky that he does sometimes join the kids and I at weekends or help with the cooking. Now, I am incredibly lucky in most ways, but do notice here an inequality which I suspect is more the theme in many marriages.

If I'm honest I've always heard this joke the other way around - how the woman would have got less for murder kind of thing.

Whether marriage "benefits" men more than women or not, I think it is true to say that women push for marriage more than men though. How many times do we hear a couple is going on holiday somewhere, usually abroad, the woman's girlfriends will be getting her hyped up about "ooh, he's going to pop the question on this trip, I know it!".

Then if the fella doesn't propose, the woman is devastated and he's in the doghouse for the next 6 months until he's almost guilted into proposing!

I hope his mum tells him where to go shove his holiday

Gross statement and not funny I don’t get it. This world being married for more than 10yrs Is an achievement which should be celebrated not mocked.