DNR order on kids with disabilities

[2021s]

Sorry about the daily mail link but this is too shocking not to share. DNR orders placed on teenagers with learning disabilities during pandemic in England.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10346479/GPs-offered-teenage-patients-learning-disabilities-not-resuscitate-orders.html?fbclid=IwAR2Moljqum74qgnOkCbldVPCng0tUA9IWfUs6loTQQXdZBX_x9wGNk844jo

This is terrifying that it would ever be considered.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10346479/GPs-offered-teenage-patients-learning-disabilities-not-resuscitate-orders.html?fbclid=IwAR2Moljqum74qgnOkCbldVPCng0tUA9IWfUs6loTQQXdZBX_x9wGNk844jo

@WonderfulYou

NHS figures released last week show that in the five weeks since the third lockdown began, Covid-19 accounted for 65% of deaths of people with learning disabilities.

That’s a very scary figure.

It is out of context though. In England and Wales daily death average is 1,400, during the first months of lockdown three the average daily deaths from Covid was 900-1,600 depending on the week, exceeding deaths from other causes. Your figures for the percentage or LD deaths roughly align with those for the for the wider population.

You know, instead of all the
It must be..
I expect...
There will be...
I imagine...

How about actually reading the many many articles that clearly state this has been and is happening.
The care quality commission is not sensationalising. NHS England is not sensationalising.
There are official and credible sources confirming this has happened and is happening.

It would be great if people would stop simply dismissing it without looking into it just because they don't want to accept that this is happening.

If you start your sentence with I expect/imagine/assume etc then you don't know. Don't just decide something cannot be true because you don't want to believe it

How many posts have there been on here over the last 20 months implying that people with disabilities/underlying conditions are lesser human beings with lives that are worth less? Bloody hundreds. It saddens me but YABU to be shocked.

How was all of this done? What does ‘offered’ mean?
I’ve read all the links and while it is in the surface shocking that people are being ‘targeted’ what’s the rationale

those with learning disabilities had a really hard time in lock down and now due to lack of finance many of the homes and respite have closed down

@Porcupineintherough

How many posts have there been on here over the last 20 months implying that people with disabilities/underlying conditions are lesser human beings with lives that are worth less? Bloody hundreds. It saddens me but YABU to be shocked.

Hmm I’m 50/50 on this though. Easy to be ‘kind, generous and understanding’ until there’s a clash of rights. Also while lockdown was supposedly to ‘protect’ the vulnerable( as well the NHS) it also caused a lot of mental health issues.

The ‘rights’ of those with disabilities is also strange for me, because of the variation. The population of disabled people is about 1 in 5 (following the definition in the equalities act). But how many (like DP and me, neurodiverse) are capable of independence - with adaptations. How many are severely disabled, how many in the middle. All with very varying needs.

fullfact.org/health/how-many-people-have-disability/

20% of the population is a very large number and I wouldn’t be surprised given the inclusion of MH issues as well if that number rose significantly over the next decade.

Blanket discussion of ‘people with disabilities’ isn’t quite valid anymore…

If you start your sentence with I expect/imagine/assume etc then you don't know. Don't just decide something cannot be true because you don't want to believe it

You are right and I apologise if my posts came across that way.
I know a lot of things aren’t black and white and it sounds like it’s not a new thing so I thought I would have heard about it either on MN or in my profession.

Disgusting. The discrimination against these groups in this country is sickening.

There are tiny pockets of poor practice all over the NHS. The GPs who over prescribe antibiotics. The ones who are reluctant to refer and miss serious injuries. There are bad eggs in any profession.

The vast majority of NHS staff who came a across these rare instances were horrified, challenged it, worked to get NHS guidance against blanket bans etc

It there are no hidden and understandable caveats, this is very shocking.

@Porcupineintherough

How many posts have there been on here over the last 20 months implying that people with disabilities/underlying conditions are lesser human beings with lives that are worth less? Bloody hundreds. It saddens me but YABU to be shocked.

(Genuine question) has there?? Where?

43% have posted they believe the OP is being unreasonable!, where the fuck has the worlds humanity gone??

These DNRs were even more serious than you may expect.

Our residential managers all refused to have any part of this, refused ot sign anything, and so none of our residents had DNRs placed upon them.

This did not stop the ambulance paramedics from querying if they should be taking a resident to hospital with epilepsy as 'don't they all have a DNR in place now?'

I'm sure there are care staff in other situations who would not have dared to query these things, or to tell paramedics their job. People will have died due to these DNRs. And apparently that's fine by 42 per cent of MNers.

So just who are these 'vulnerable people' you are all apparently to keen on protecting??

@ChristmasFluff

These DNRs were even more serious than you may expect.

Our residential managers all refused to have any part of this, refused ot sign anything, and so none of our residents had DNRs placed upon them.

This did not stop the ambulance paramedics from querying if they should be taking a resident to hospital with epilepsy as 'don't they all have a DNR in place now?'

I'm sure there are care staff in other situations who would not have dared to query these things, or to tell paramedics their job. People will have died due to these DNRs. And apparently that's fine by 42 per cent of MNers.

So just who are these 'vulnerable people' you are all apparently to keen on protecting??

This 100%

There has to be an expose on what happened in the care homes of these people we were supposed to be protecting.

Elderly people were written off and left to die when simple antibiotics for a chest infection ect would have sorted them out.

That 42% will be made up of a few who yes, think the disabled should be left to die but mostly it will be people who refuse to believe it's been happening and have decided the OP is scaremongering, and wrong. If they'd simply spend a little time reading up on it, they'd see it's real. But they don't want to. For whatever reason. 🤷‍♀️

Judging by the way health and social care treats SEN children and their families I’m not at all surprised. Special place in hell for these professionals

(Genuine question) has there?? Where?

There have been plenty of posts which basically said it only kills those who are vulnerable or have underlying conditions so they should either stay hidden away forever or risk dying but it was unfair to ask everyone to make changes.

Anyone who went down the “only those with pre existing conditions” route was basically saying those with pre existing conditions are less worthy

yes indeed. And as I said upthread I have said on some threads my child is vulnerable and got a strident response saying I ought to homeschool and keep him at home so others could have a normal life. There was one particular response that was really aggressive and incredibly hurtful where I was essentially told that a hild like mine (immune issues, allergies, asthma) would never have survived to his current age (11) in the past so was to all intents and purposes if he ended up being collateral damage so others could go about unhindered by lockdown and mask wearing then that was reasonable.

I've given the above anecote on a number of MN threads now- but this really hurt me. And shocked me. And angered me. Prior to covid I believed that most people felt kindness, compassion and just plain human sympathy towards SEN kids and people with disabilities. That belief has been shaken during covid. From how people have reacted on thread after thread on covid- people who have actually SAID that they do not care about a vulnerable stranger in the context of my child when talking about wearing fucking masks in public.

Oh, and I nc every couple of weeks (and occasionally flounce completely). so some of this will have been under a previous name in case anyone tries to deny it or question it by advance searching.

anyway. tbh the DM article and associated links tap into all of my deepest fears about the society we are currently living in.

@Sirzy

(Genuine question) has there?? Where?

There have been plenty of posts which basically said it only kills those who are vulnerable or have underlying conditions so they should either stay hidden away forever or risk dying but it was unfair to ask everyone to make changes.

Anyone who went down the “only those with pre existing conditions” route was basically saying those with pre existing conditions are less worthy

Well I have a pre existing condition and am CV.

And I do think tough moral questions need to be asked about exactly how far the rest of the country is expected to go to protect us.

I do not, and have never wanted, other people to restrict their lives, suffer mentally, be made redundant or lose their business on my account.

However that is a different argument to DNRs.

@IcedAbstinente I understand your upset. However, it isn’t unreasonable to be upset at losing your business/home/education/mental health/relationships in order to protect strangers.

Doesn't surprise me at all. I know from experience also that people with disabilities are treated like they should be grateful for scraps and we should accept we're a burden and should be chucked overboard the second we mildly inconvenience the 'real people'.

I remember saying at the beginning of the pandemic that people with disabilities will be 'protected' only as long as the 'real people' aren't too inconvenienced and then it will be a case of fuck 'em.

I was called all sorts. But I was fucking right.

And yes, I chose the words 'real people' purposefully because I firmly believe we are seen as less than.

@IncompleteSenten

I wouldn’t call tanking the economy and restricting basic freedoms an ‘inconvenience’.

And I would not call blanket DNRs and a total lack of appropriate support for disabled and vulnerable people acceptable.

@IncompleteSenten

And I would not call blanket DNRs and a total lack of appropriate support for disabled and vulnerable people acceptable.

Neither would I. But it’s a separate issue.