DNR order on kids with disabilities

[2021s]

Sorry about the daily mail link but this is too shocking not to share. DNR orders placed on teenagers with learning disabilities during pandemic in England.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10346479/GPs-offered-teenage-patients-learning-disabilities-not-resuscitate-orders.html?fbclid=IwAR2Moljqum74qgnOkCbldVPCng0tUA9IWfUs6loTQQXdZBX_x9wGNk844jo

This is terrifying that it would ever be considered.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10346479/GPs-offered-teenage-patients-learning-disabilities-not-resuscitate-orders.html?fbclid=IwAR2Moljqum74qgnOkCbldVPCng0tUA9IWfUs6loTQQXdZBX_x9wGNk844jo

@bordermidgebite
Vote to pay more for health and social
Care in taxes to reduce this happening
The majority of people lost their shit when NI was put up 1.25%, the bottom two thirds of earners have the lowest rates of income taxation of any EU nation, the bottom two thirds of earners have the second lowest rate of income taxation of any major developed economy (for context the top third have the fifth highest in the EU).

People in the UK very rarely vote for higher taxes for themselves, they often vote for higher taxes for other people, this despite paying some of the least taxes in the developed world.

@IncompleteSenten

Yes. We don't need equal (aka the same) treatment, we need equality of outcome. People need to understand the difference.

We don't need equality of outcome either, we need a rational, sensible and compassionate approach. Sometimes that is expensive and intensive medical intervention, sometimes that is allowing someone to die, more often it is something in the middle.

Well to be fair I think the NI increase was a pretty poor way to raise more taxes as the burden should be on the higher paid/those with more wealth

I am well aware that families on twice my earnings would kick up a fuss about lack of affordability

But it's the only way out of the mess

Fwiw

I include myself in the higher paid bracket even though those families on twice my salary would still not be in the mn 6 figure group )

Nice guidelines potentially restricting access to treatment is as far as I know still in place.

I was shouting about this at the time.

Its interesting that there is a bit of disbelief that this could happen or trying to explain it away as it seems so abhorrent, but there was a lot of reports if blanket dnr being applied in publications for families of children with SN. It took a long time to get some special needs as a priority for vaccination as well despite the death rate in this group being very high. There was a lot of talk of care homes but people seemed to forget care homes have young adults in them too.

@BusBusBus

Its interesting that there is a bit of disbelief that this could happen or trying to explain it away as it seems so abhorrent, but there was a lot of reports if blanket dnr being applied in publications for families of children with SN. It took a long time to get some special needs as a priority for vaccination as well despite the death rate in this group being very high. There was a lot of talk of care homes but people seemed to forget care homes have young adults in them too.

I'm also intrigued about the disbelief. This has actually been going on for many year, just recently exacerbated by the pandemic.

@bordermidgebite

Well to be fair I think the NI increase was a pretty poor way to raise more taxes as the burden should be on the higher paid/those with more wealth

I am well aware that families on twice my earnings would kick up a fuss about lack of affordability

But it's the only way out of the mess

The burden is already on the higher paid, the top 1% of earners pay 34.4% of income tax, the top third of earners pay the fifth highest rate of income taxation in the EU, the bottom two thirds pay the lowest rate of income taxation in the EU. The problem is not that high earners do not pay a high enough percentage, it is that the majority pay very low rates.

My husband and I are both additional rate taxpayers, we both agree we should pay more tax, but we both feel that everyone should pay more tax. Personally I would like a tax and spend system closer to Norway or Germany, but most of the UK population want one closer to the USA's system.

@Uniforn

Sadly disabled are treated like crap in this country, this is outrageous but sadly not surprising :(

I agree 100% another example how gov really “care” about the disabled & elderly, absolutely disgusting.

The people minimising it, trying to explain it away, very odd. Is it the usual NHS worship, they can do nothing wrong or something else.

@2021s

is the issue that they were offered to the teenager, rather than the parent?

No. The issue is that they were offered it at all. That the life of a person with autism or Down’s syndrome is considered less valuable than the rest of society and therefore not worth saving. There is no way that this is anything other than horrifying.

If you have DS then you have a reduced immune system, that fact impacts on treatment.

You may have other reasons covid will be worse for you. Not taking that into account is horrifying.

Not taking a medical history and vulnerabilities into account is horrifying.

The logic being used to justify this is the same as those who where happily discussing how it was only the vulnerable and those with underlying conditions at risk from covid as if they weren’t also people.

We seem to have this odd idea of people with underlying conditions being elderly and at deaths door with no quality of life (not that that makes it any better!)

We received a text from our GP surgery last year (I have an LPA for my disabled DD) asking us to "carefully consider what our wishes would be" in the event of DD contracting covid I didnt receive one for myself, or for my non-disabled DD. It absolutely broke my heart.

@BusBusBus

Its interesting that there is a bit of disbelief that this could happen or trying to explain it away as it seems so abhorrent, but there was a lot of reports if blanket dnr being applied in publications for families of children with SN. It took a long time to get some special needs as a priority for vaccination as well despite the death rate in this group being very high. There was a lot of talk of care homes but people seemed to forget care homes have young adults in them too.

Possibly because the media has a track record of sensationalism and omitting facts that don't match the narrative so that they can sell more papers.

Even in your post there is an issue, if people with SN are at greater risk of death and so need to be placed in the priority lane for vaccination, that would also indicate a potrntial reason why a higher rate of DNR might be appropriate for that population. That is not something that we can judge without the full data behind both the death rate and the epidemiological data as to why prioritising that specific group for vaccines is appropriate and beneficial.

The talk of care homes was because in elderly care homes the NHS discharged infected individuals directly into care homes, infecting one of the most vulnerable groups in society. The death rate in young adult care homes was far lower, which is not surprising, but also far less likely to attract headlines as it was so much lower.

i am sure there is more to this, and if a child who happens to have learning disability also has a life limiting disability i imagine these were the ones who were offered the dnr

I agree.

It says it’s only offered to those whose heart has stopped.

When your heart stops your brain is starved of oxygen and your brain cells die and you become brain damaged.
People with Down syndrome already have damaged brains so of course any type of extra brain damage is going to affect them more than someone who doesn’t have Down syndrome.

Maybe I’m sceptical because it’s the daily Mail but I don’t know anyone in RL who were offered this and I know well over 100 people with autism or Down syndrome.

[quote IncompleteSenten]There is ample evidence that blanket DNRs have been placed on people simply because they are disabled and not because a DNR is appropriate.

Having LD or asd is not in itself a reason for a DNR and yet this has been happening.

www.openaccessgovernment.org/blanket-dnr/122280/

www.autismeye.com/do-not-resuscitate-dnr-scandal/

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-52217868

www.hsj.co.uk/coronavirus/unprecedented-number-of-dnr-orders-for-learning-disabilities-patients/7027480.article

managementinpractice.com/news/blanket-dnr-orders-for-people-with-learning-disabilities-and-autism-never-acceptable-warns-nhs-england/[/quote]
Just putting this here again for people saying it's only the DM so can be dismissed.

Well it did happen to people with autism and no life limiting conditions and they received an apology. And it happened this year. So let’s stop pretending this is a made up story. And it’s in the Telegraph as well as the Mail. Sorry it’s not in the Guardian.

well here is a guardian article
www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/13/new-do-not-resuscitate-orders-imposed-on-covid-19-patients-with-learning-difficulties

@MatildaIThink whilst a lot of media is sensationalist, i was really thinking more about the support groups that exist for parents of children with SN and their newsletters, which are more about informing parents and sometimes lobbying for change.
Ive no doubt in many instances a dnr os appropriate, but there were lots of red flags about them being applied inappropriately and that is a concern. I dont think the nursing times is that unreliable for instance.

@x2boys

It's the fact it was offered to people who despite their disabilities were otherwise healthy that's shocking My child despite his severe autism and learning disabilities,is s perfectly healthy ,he should be treated the same as anybody.

Yep like the 16 year Boy who has asthma and about to sit his A levels was asked if he would sign a DNR whilst the surgery was calling to see if he had his asthma packs.

NHS figures released last week show that in the five weeks since the third lockdown began, Covid-19 accounted for 65% of deaths of people with learning disabilities.

That’s a very scary figure.

yes and as pointed out, those with learning disabilities may not be so vocal about their symptoms, so it is very much up to carers to look out for symptoms

It's the fact it was offered to people who despite their disabilities were otherwise healthy that's shocking
My child despite his severe autism and learning disabilities,is s perfectly healthy ,he should be treated the same as anybody.

@x2boys how was it offered to your child? Did they say it in a way that they were asking everyone or did they tell you that you had no choice?

Oh and the priority for vaccination isnt just about underlying health issues, but about their ability to understand things like social distancing or wearing a mask or their need to have carers in close contact so them being more at risk or exposure and their ability to communicate that they feel ill and seek out medical care at the correct time and to answer questions about their health.

@Theluggage15

Well it did happen to people with autism and no life limiting conditions and they received an apology. And it happened this year. So let’s stop pretending this is a made up story. And it’s in the Telegraph as well as the Mail. Sorry it’s not in the Guardian.

Yes, to be clear. DD has no life limiting conditions - she did not receive an apology however!