TW. Could Grandad harm or abuse my children?

[Neveratruerword]

My FIL, this summer, on four separate occasions has tried to take my sons for a bath (in the middle of the afternoon) without me or my husband around.

We tend to stay a few nights each time we visit, as we live a considerable distance from them and go to visit for a night or two.

The first time, he managed to get the children (age 7&5) into the bath without us knowing (husband napping downstairs and me unpacking bags). What got me concerned was that he said the children had asked for a bath in the middle of the afternoon whereas later on my mother in law mentioned that it had all been Grandad's idea. So either there was a misunderstanding or Grandad was not telling the truth.

At this point, I had concerns:

1. He has never been a hands on grandad in terms of childcare or hygiene. So why this sudden desire, now the boys are 7 & 5?

1. There is no way my sons would have asked for a bath at 3pm in the afternoon. This idea of an 'activity' has to have come from him. Why not something more normal like walking to the park or a kick about with a ball in the garden?

1. The discrepancies between what my MIL and FIL said had happened.

Bit worrying really but I didn't bother too much at this point.

Anyway, as we had been kept apart all last Christmas until the April due to Covid, we tried to make up for it and made another three trips up to see them between May and August. Each time, Grandad has tried to bath the kids in the afternoon. Myself and husband have shut it down every time with a clear "No thank you Grandad".

In fact, on one of the evenings when we were bathing them ourselves (at the normal time!!) our oldest son stated he wanted privacy so we told Grandad that and didn't allow him in, respecting our sons wishes. FWIW neither of our sons have disclosed anything about Grandad.

I don't know why but he still kept trying to do this ridiculous bathing in the afternoon thing despite us very clearly and firmly (no aggression) shutting it down EVERY time. In my eyes it just isn't appropriate, particularly as he has not been "hands on" in any respect of their lives so far.

It made me very upset to be honest and my husband and I have had to have few very upsetting conversations about his father's intentions.

It also made me aware of how Grandad stays up very late at night, much later than anyone else and on his way to bed he will walk in to the children's room and (I think) watch them. I was aware he did this and before thought he was just being sweet and enjoyed seeing the sleeping children. But now, I am horrified and it has led to me staying awake all night with the bedroom door open, waiting for him to go to bed and being vigilant about him entering the kids room. The fear and lack of sleep felt upsetting. Not going to be able to sleep there again unless I sleep in with the kids.

In addition, recently he has jumped at the chance to accompany either child to do a wee in the bushes (if we have been out and about in the woods without a toilet nearby). Once again, I shut this down every time and felt my son was relieved that I did so.

Finally, I have noticed he will sit on the sofa with the children, all three of them covered up with a blanket. I never gave it ANY thought before all this new, odd behaviour. But now, I am horrified by it and have told my husband we cannot allow it.

In mind I just cannot believe that my FIL could harm his grandsons. On the other hand, these recent behaviours have REALLY upset me and made me concerned. The whole thing has sickened me to be honesg. My instinct is to protect my children at all costs.

Back in August I rang the NSPCC for advice and they validated my concerns and told me (amongst other things-they were wonderfully supportive) to continue being vigilant, to reduce or stop contact if needed and to report to police if any clear abuse happened.

My husband and I have not seen his family since then. Like I said, it has meant some horribly difficult conversations for us and a good few tears.

As we have the distance between us, we have used that as a reason not to meet up through the last school term. Now it is Christmas, we will be stopping with other relatives close by and only doing short ish day trips to see the in laws. I honestly could not cope with an overnight trip at the moment. We hope that shorter trips without the need for any bathtimes at all will put a stop to this behaviour.

I haven't always got along that well with my in laws but the issues we have had in the past have been so trivial and have never stopped us seeing them.

Now that my FIL behaviour has led us to feel it is untoward and potentially concerning, I feel I have been led into a very disturbing place where I have to examine his intentions and consider whether or not he could abuse my children. It feels very dark anf sinister.

We have wondered if the odd behaviour could be an early onset dementia (not something we have brought up with the remainder of the family) or if he really is just clueless as to what is and isn't appropriate behaviour?

I'm not really asking AIBU. I don't feel, when it comes to my children's safety, that IABU at all. I also am not prematurely cutting off the in laws and children's relationship based on a hunch and scant evidence of child abuse.

I am however putting in stronger boundaries re.visits to their home and my husband and I have vowed to each other that we will not leave the children alone with Grandad at all. If anything untoward happens we will be leaving immediately. I am lucky my husband (although sad) is supporting me 100% in this.

I have the strongest feeling that I have to protect my children here and that you cannot rewind in real life so I have to prevent the worst happening. I am dreading the visits but am so, so grateful to my husband for arranging day visits only. Thr overnights and worry would destroy me.

I hope beyond hope that I am wrong and that Grandad poses no threat at all. However, I'm not sure how/if I am ever going to find out the "truth" and will likely spend the rest of their childhood and teen years being cautious etc.

Any advice or perspectives welcome. Please be kind.

What the hell!!!!! Stay away from this man!

I think there have been some extreme reactions on this thread, and I genuinely think you're doing the right thing @OP, but a PP suggested that by taking the children there at all then you may be doing them some harm, as they may feel very uncomfortable due to past experiences.

That's what I would be thinking about.

I must say though I wouldn't be in your shoes for the world and I wish you and your family nothing but the very best, and I'm really sorry that you are having to navigate this (like I said, which I think you're doing brilliantly). Good luck and I hope you are all able to have a lovely Christmas

I appreciate I'm a bit late to the party and am now just adding to the avalanche, but I wanted to add our story.

A few years ago we discovered that my FIL had been abusing our niece. It had been going on for years and always while the house was full of visitors. He was never alone with her.

It can happen under the noses of multiple people. It's next to impossible to be vigilant enough for enough of the time.

Are you sure your husband wasn't abused himself as a child as it is rather unusual that he has taken this so calmly?

Dementia doesn't make people calculating and controlled. Disinhibited, yes, someone with dementia might suddenly try to drag a child into the bushes while other people are around. But getting your children into the bath when you are not there, lying that it is their idea, trying to take your children into the bushes for a wee, giving himself excuses to be around or alone with your children when they are exposed. That's not disinhibited and that's not demented, that is calculated manipulative behaviour.

If your MIL is "incapable of such a conversation" then that is another bright red flag. She is used to pushing her husband's behaviour under the rug because she feels something is wrong and she can't face it.

It must be very difficult but the thing is, a sort of inappropriate behaviour (boundary pushing) has already happened to your children several times. If you keep seeing your FiL then similar kinds of thing would keep on happening. When your FiL bathed your children or tried to take your DS into the bushes to pee, that was inappropriate but you and DH did not challenge him about it. Where is the "Don't you EVER do anything like that again"? Where is your clear boundary setting and your insisting that your children's boundaries are respected and that they can't spend time with someone who can't be trusted to do that? Vigilance is not the answer because every time your FiL pushes on a boundary and you stop him crossing it, you are failing to challenge him pushing the boundary. What will your children learn from that?

Actions have consequences, but FiL is very much protected from the consequences of his actions. How unaware can he be? Your FiL must have been allowed to get away with overstepping boundaries for years or he couldn't be so "unaware". If he had no ill intent then you could tell him not to do the things that worry you and he would stop immediately and forever, and he would take extra care not to overstep. There are people with poor awareness of personal/social boundaries and good intent, and you can recognise it because they instantly respect the boundary and even over-compensate when it's pointed out to them. Instead FiL keeps trying, looking for different ways to get across that you wont notice, pushing at your boundaries and your husband's to get at the children, as well as pushing at the children's own.

You say your children's safety is your biggest concern but it's not easy see it through all your other concerns like "my husband is very distressed by it", "I'd hate for the kids to see this unfold", "a huge family rift", "asking my husband to cut ties with his family" and "what if he is just an old man etc."? Well, what if? You are not depriving them of a healthy grandparent-grandchild relationship and they will do better without two very unhealthy ones.

As for the pants thing - you can't really be expecting your children to recognise that their grandfather is walking all over their personal boundaries and then call him out on it, when you and your DH don't dare to do that for them? It's not just MiL. Silence is the behaviour you and your DH have both been modeling. Teaching your DC where their boundaries should be wont help them to defend those boundaries against someone who you already know is very good at creeping across them and making people feel bad about saying anything.

"Not in immediate danger" is good enough for social services not to take your children away from you, but as parents it shouldn't be good enough for you. So as you've recognised, keeping your children right away from their grandparents altogether from now on is your best strategy no matter how much distress it causes in the family. And your DH may need to work on himself and his own boundaries because his own reaction is so muted and he seems so dependent on you to make decisions about protecting his children.

I rang the NSPCC for advice and they validated my concerns

I'd say that tells you everything you need to know; their advice was excellent, and FWIW I think the way you're handling this is too (and thank goodness both you and DH are on the same page)

Just wondering, though, if it would be worth mentioning that you've consulted the professionals and are acting on their advice? Since they seem the sort to sweep things under the carpet, I'm thinking this might help in dealing with any objections ... not that you actually need it, since as responsible parents your judgement comes first

@Justheretoaskaquestion91

I think you sound like a wonderful mother who is taking this seriously and trying to protect her children in the face of a very upsetting situation.

Couldn’t have put it better myself. OP, some op seem out to get you, but I think you’re handling this awful situation incredibly well. Were anything like this to happen in my life I would hope to handle it as you have.

I want to stress first that I think you are attempting to navigate a very difficult situation and you are doing a good job of considering all sides.

I'm an ex teacher who has sadly dealt with abuse too many times over the years. I just wanted to add my thoughts. His behaviour is not normal. There is a high chance he is a paedophile. Knowing that, you should consider whether you want to spend any time at all with a man who may be having sexual thoughts about his grandchildren while they eat their lunch.

I know that's hard to hear. Also, unless you or your husband confront the in-laws about your suspicions you are allowing your children to think what their spidery senses may be telling them is ok.

I just wanted to add my thoughts from a different perspective. I'm a regular poster but have name changed for obvious reasons.

I was sexually abused by my step-grandfather when I was 12. I've literally never written those words down so bear with me.

I just wanted to say I think your obvious care for your children's safety is commendable. I wish my mother or step father had the same awareness over what was going on right under their noses, sometimes only meters away from them, when I was a child.

TW for anyone who has suffered abuse maybe don't read on *

Your senses are correct. The bath thing is hard to explain away as anything other than a red flag.

The blanket on the sofa was how my step grandfather first touched me inappropriately and how it continued several times after.

If you do spend any time with your FIL again I'd recommend you watch every interaction verbal and physical very closely. For example, when I used to have to say goodbye to my step grandfather on Sundays, my step grandfather would, for example, kiss me on the cheek just that little bit longer than appropriate, if I was standing next to his chair he would stroke my leg (in front of my parents - but I could feel his touch wasn't innocent). If I avoided him when we visited, by playing in the garden or attic (as far away as possible) when saying goodbye to me me would whisper in my ear "we haven't had our little cuddles today". That phrase is the part of the abuse that scarred my soul, more than the physical touching if tat can be believed.

This is literally the first time I've ever written this down, let alone shared it on the internet. I'm not sharing to hijack your thread or for sympathy; the reason I felt compelled to share is I think it may be helpful to you and your husband to see how hidden in plain sight abuse can be to a child. My parents never had a clue.

Rightly or wrongly Ive never told my mum and step dad what happened to me. My step father idolised his dad and it would have ripped the family apart if I said anything.

After my step grandfather whispered those words to me I never went back to that house. I had many arguments with my step father in the years that follower after I stopped going to see his parents. He, obviously, thought I was a horrible granddaughter who didn't care about family. This opinion was only reinforced when I was the only family member at the funeral who didn't shed a single tear. I don't particularly like my step father but I've always been quite proud of the fact that whilst he may think I'm awfully cold, the exact opposite is actually true; I have chosen to let him cherish his fathers memory, above my own pain, which I think is the most loving thing I could have done for him. That said, I'm not close to my mum anymore either as I think the truth is I'm angry she didn't protect me or have the intelligence to question why my behaviour changed and I stopped wanting to go over to granddads house.

I just wanted to say i think you are handling this very hard situation very well. You have done all you can while it's still not known whether he is a danger to your children or just an idiot. I just wanted to try and be helpful and tell you how covert abusers can be. So you can keep your boys safe.

To anyone who is reading this I am ok. I have had therapy and have very much chosen to not let it define me. It just not something pleasant to remember and I wish with all my heart I had had the love and support of a caring mum like OP and dad to protect me like your boys do. Trust your gut OP. X

You're right in what you have done. I'd go no contact and somehow flag it up with others. There's no polite way to do this.

@anonposting I'm so sorry you had to go through that. What an awful Man.

@SeasonFinale
Are you sure your husband wasn't abused himself as a child as it is rather unusual that he has taken this so calmly?

In an earlier post the OP says "When growing up his father never harmed him yet did make him feel uncomfortable about his.own body. Hugging him oddly and wobbling his (small) belly almost as if to make him feel self conscious about it. Sex was never discussed on their household."

I am wondering who else grandad may have behaved oddly with? Unless it is onset of dementia, it seems late in life to be developing odd behaviours towards children. I would be wondering about how he may have behaved towards other members of the family including those who are adults now. You DH reports mildly odd behaviour but there are siblings, a cousin mentioned, possibly also children of friends of the family who may have had contact with him. Obviously though you can’t start asking questions without causing a huge upset. Your caution seems wise though, OP.

anonposting - thank you for your post. I am sure it has clarified how insidious and hidden these abuses can be, in spite of being in plain site. I can never forget reading that Jimmy Saville would fondle little girls under the sheets as he chatted to them in their hospital rooms, in full view of staff. I do admire that you have kept the illusion of normality alive for your stepfather so he can keep his good memories - that must take some courage. I commend you for that.

Upthread, someone talked about silence. I think this is the nub of the matter. We all keep silent because challenging is too awkward and in the process the child at the centre of it all learns from the example of those around him/her that silence is the order of the day. A chilling thought.

@AmaryllisNightAndDay

Dementia doesn't make people calculating and controlled. Disinhibited, yes, someone with dementia might suddenly try to drag a child into the bushes while other people are around. But getting your children into the bath when you are not there, lying that it is their idea, trying to take your children into the bushes for a wee, giving himself excuses to be around or alone with your children when they are exposed. That's not disinhibited and that's not demented, that is calculated manipulative behaviour.

If your MIL is "incapable of such a conversation" then that is another bright red flag. She is used to pushing her husband's behaviour under the rug because she feels something is wrong and she can't face it.

It must be very difficult but the thing is, a sort of inappropriate behaviour (boundary pushing) has already happened to your children several times. If you keep seeing your FiL then similar kinds of thing would keep on happening. When your FiL bathed your children or tried to take your DS into the bushes to pee, that was inappropriate but you and DH did not challenge him about it. Where is the "Don't you EVER do anything like that again"? Where is your clear boundary setting and your insisting that your children's boundaries are respected and that they can't spend time with someone who can't be trusted to do that? Vigilance is not the answer because every time your FiL pushes on a boundary and you stop him crossing it, you are failing to challenge him pushing the boundary. What will your children learn from that?

Actions have consequences, but FiL is very much protected from the consequences of his actions. How unaware can he be? Your FiL must have been allowed to get away with overstepping boundaries for years or he couldn't be so "unaware". If he had no ill intent then you could tell him not to do the things that worry you and he would stop immediately and forever, and he would take extra care not to overstep. There are people with poor awareness of personal/social boundaries and good intent, and you can recognise it because they instantly respect the boundary and even over-compensate when it's pointed out to them. Instead FiL keeps trying, looking for different ways to get across that you wont notice, pushing at your boundaries and your husband's to get at the children, as well as pushing at the children's own.

You say your children's safety is your biggest concern but it's not easy see it through all your other concerns like "my husband is very distressed by it", "I'd hate for the kids to see this unfold", "a huge family rift", "asking my husband to cut ties with his family" and "what if he is just an old man etc."? Well, what if? You are not depriving them of a healthy grandparent-grandchild relationship and they will do better without two very unhealthy ones.

As for the pants thing - you can't really be expecting your children to recognise that their grandfather is walking all over their personal boundaries and then call him out on it, when you and your DH don't dare to do that for them? It's not just MiL. Silence is the behaviour you and your DH have both been modeling. Teaching your DC where their boundaries should be wont help them to defend those boundaries against someone who you already know is very good at creeping across them and making people feel bad about saying anything.

"Not in immediate danger" is good enough for social services not to take your children away from you, but as parents it shouldn't be good enough for you. So as you've recognised, keeping your children right away from their grandparents altogether from now on is your best strategy no matter how much distress it causes in the family. And your DH may need to work on himself and his own boundaries because his own reaction is so muted and he seems so dependent on you to make decisions about protecting his children.

Every word of this is spot on.

You need to cut him loose. I am a survivor of sexual abuse. Please please do not see him again ever. I am entirely convinced he is a child abuser.

Was there ever any inappropriate behaviour towards your DH when he was a child?

OP I’m so sorry you’re in this situation, but please please take on board all the posters who’ve explained why cutting contact altogether is really the only way to truly protect your boys. It’s not going to be any kind of decent relationship now anyway since you will be watching him like a hawk, and the boys will undoubtedly pick up on that. It’s one thing to think you can watch them every second at this age (and as PP have explained in the most awful ways- you can’t), but as they get older that’s going to get harder to do. (And contrary to a bizarre previous post- the abuse won’t just stop being an issue when they stop having baths, he’ll just find other ways). Am just thinking of my own innocent little DS, and the idea of someone taking him to see this man makes me feel sick and panicky. You sound like an amazing mum, but you need to do EVERYTHING you possibly can- and that means keeping them well away.

I'm so sorry to read this op. I've no experience but logic says that how can his actions be anything but sinister? And to be so open makes me think that he's used to doing it and people turning a blind eye. A grandparent helping at bath times- absolutely fine. A grandparent taking kids for their baths without checking that they need one is weird and in the middle of the day, that has huge alarm bells. On a hot day, taking the paddling pool out and having the kids play in it, fine.

And then everything else that you say. He may have abused your husband or at least watched him indecently.

One of your kids is uncomfortable. Like a poster said, if you continue seeing him, you're telling your son that his instincts were wrong.

I love my parents but if either of them had behaved like that, they wouldn't see my kids again.

I work a lot with people with Dementia and whilst people can lose inhibitions and sometimes be inappropriate it is usually known and can be easily recognised as them being confused.

Maybe aspergers, to not pick up when someone feels they’re being inappropriate

I’m glad that post by Delories was deleted. It was very disturbing in its attempt to minimise the issue.

I was groomed by a neighbour in his 60s in plain view of my parents. He would the family on his boat and he would put his arm around me and drop his hand to my bottom.

My parents didn't think much of it.

I kind of thought it odd but I thought it must be me who was odd as no one else thought it odd. I was 8 years old and it is hard to gauge things when you are 8.

It built up to him attracting my attention when I was in my room at night by flashing lights on in his house opposite - then he would be standing there masturbating once he'd got my attention.

At that point eventually I told my parents and they put a stop to it. But the odd behaviour and grooming had gone on for months before.