TW. Could Grandad harm or abuse my children?

[Neveratruerword]

My FIL, this summer, on four separate occasions has tried to take my sons for a bath (in the middle of the afternoon) without me or my husband around.

We tend to stay a few nights each time we visit, as we live a considerable distance from them and go to visit for a night or two.

The first time, he managed to get the children (age 7&5) into the bath without us knowing (husband napping downstairs and me unpacking bags). What got me concerned was that he said the children had asked for a bath in the middle of the afternoon whereas later on my mother in law mentioned that it had all been Grandad's idea. So either there was a misunderstanding or Grandad was not telling the truth.

At this point, I had concerns:

1. He has never been a hands on grandad in terms of childcare or hygiene. So why this sudden desire, now the boys are 7 & 5?

1. There is no way my sons would have asked for a bath at 3pm in the afternoon. This idea of an 'activity' has to have come from him. Why not something more normal like walking to the park or a kick about with a ball in the garden?

1. The discrepancies between what my MIL and FIL said had happened.

Bit worrying really but I didn't bother too much at this point.

Anyway, as we had been kept apart all last Christmas until the April due to Covid, we tried to make up for it and made another three trips up to see them between May and August. Each time, Grandad has tried to bath the kids in the afternoon. Myself and husband have shut it down every time with a clear "No thank you Grandad".

In fact, on one of the evenings when we were bathing them ourselves (at the normal time!!) our oldest son stated he wanted privacy so we told Grandad that and didn't allow him in, respecting our sons wishes. FWIW neither of our sons have disclosed anything about Grandad.

I don't know why but he still kept trying to do this ridiculous bathing in the afternoon thing despite us very clearly and firmly (no aggression) shutting it down EVERY time. In my eyes it just isn't appropriate, particularly as he has not been "hands on" in any respect of their lives so far.

It made me very upset to be honest and my husband and I have had to have few very upsetting conversations about his father's intentions.

It also made me aware of how Grandad stays up very late at night, much later than anyone else and on his way to bed he will walk in to the children's room and (I think) watch them. I was aware he did this and before thought he was just being sweet and enjoyed seeing the sleeping children. But now, I am horrified and it has led to me staying awake all night with the bedroom door open, waiting for him to go to bed and being vigilant about him entering the kids room. The fear and lack of sleep felt upsetting. Not going to be able to sleep there again unless I sleep in with the kids.

In addition, recently he has jumped at the chance to accompany either child to do a wee in the bushes (if we have been out and about in the woods without a toilet nearby). Once again, I shut this down every time and felt my son was relieved that I did so.

Finally, I have noticed he will sit on the sofa with the children, all three of them covered up with a blanket. I never gave it ANY thought before all this new, odd behaviour. But now, I am horrified by it and have told my husband we cannot allow it.

In mind I just cannot believe that my FIL could harm his grandsons. On the other hand, these recent behaviours have REALLY upset me and made me concerned. The whole thing has sickened me to be honesg. My instinct is to protect my children at all costs.

Back in August I rang the NSPCC for advice and they validated my concerns and told me (amongst other things-they were wonderfully supportive) to continue being vigilant, to reduce or stop contact if needed and to report to police if any clear abuse happened.

My husband and I have not seen his family since then. Like I said, it has meant some horribly difficult conversations for us and a good few tears.

As we have the distance between us, we have used that as a reason not to meet up through the last school term. Now it is Christmas, we will be stopping with other relatives close by and only doing short ish day trips to see the in laws. I honestly could not cope with an overnight trip at the moment. We hope that shorter trips without the need for any bathtimes at all will put a stop to this behaviour.

I haven't always got along that well with my in laws but the issues we have had in the past have been so trivial and have never stopped us seeing them.

Now that my FIL behaviour has led us to feel it is untoward and potentially concerning, I feel I have been led into a very disturbing place where I have to examine his intentions and consider whether or not he could abuse my children. It feels very dark anf sinister.

We have wondered if the odd behaviour could be an early onset dementia (not something we have brought up with the remainder of the family) or if he really is just clueless as to what is and isn't appropriate behaviour?

I'm not really asking AIBU. I don't feel, when it comes to my children's safety, that IABU at all. I also am not prematurely cutting off the in laws and children's relationship based on a hunch and scant evidence of child abuse.

I am however putting in stronger boundaries re.visits to their home and my husband and I have vowed to each other that we will not leave the children alone with Grandad at all. If anything untoward happens we will be leaving immediately. I am lucky my husband (although sad) is supporting me 100% in this.

I have the strongest feeling that I have to protect my children here and that you cannot rewind in real life so I have to prevent the worst happening. I am dreading the visits but am so, so grateful to my husband for arranging day visits only. Thr overnights and worry would destroy me.

I hope beyond hope that I am wrong and that Grandad poses no threat at all. However, I'm not sure how/if I am ever going to find out the "truth" and will likely spend the rest of their childhood and teen years being cautious etc.

Any advice or perspectives welcome. Please be kind.

I wouldn’t stay over there again, wouldn’t leave the kids alone with him or near him.

My step dad gives off the same creepy vibe when around my dd and I no longer take her over there and no longer allow my DM to care for her at her house. The times I have to be near him I keep dd very close to me. Luckily I have done it in a way not to cause any friction in the family, my dm still sees my dc but at my house usually with out her dh. Other family members feel the same as me and don’t allow him to be alone with their DC’s.

@JinglingHellsBells

Just 'not turning up any more' is to me a rather passive way of dealing with this.

Fine, don't visit them. But you need to say why.

I keep coming back to the feeling that your husband is being a bit of a wimp. He needs to talk to his father and not allow him to think his behaviour's gone unnoticed.

I dont know why that would help?

Abusers are in plain sight all around us already. They go for the easiest target which is children they will be able to get close to. Or they get jobs that will bring them children literally to their door (Larry Nasser? comes to mind)
They too will be on high alert around children, looking for ways to gain control, how well there machinations are working, wether the parents suspect anything, thinking of stories to cover up what they are doing, hence all under a blanket together, deliberately getting children dirty so they can legitimately offer a bath, absolutely anything they can think of to get near a child. Exactly as happened here.
And the thrill of getting away with it in front of a parent, well that's probably the holy grail.
So dad talks to father (we dont know for sure but FOG is probably in play) grandad denies all, comes up with convincing reasons for all the red flags, dad says oh ok, here have access to my children again. Everything you said sounds utterly reasonable.
FWIW and it's only my opinion obviously, dad will go along to get along, if anything happens in future he will brush it off, give the "convincing " reasons his dad gave him and it will all carry on. And another two children will be harmed.
Even if OP is lucky, at some point those children will ask mum why they were taken to grandads. And OP will have to explain, despite the many misgivings and red flags the size of Albania we figured we could keep you safe.

He will find a way.

I don’t think you should let him near your DC either, and I speak as a survivor of CSA at the hands of my F, along with my DSis. (My DM says she didn’t know, but I think it’s more a case of denial.)

My DB was also an abuser, although he was also a victim but not of our F. (There we’re other abusers involved.) I therefore haven’t allowed him contact with my DDs for years, not that I believe he’s likely to abuse them, but because he’s badly damaged as an individual I can’t be sure. My DM has agreed to this so she still has contact (though she regularly guilt trips me about it).

I haven’t cut my DB off; I know he was also a victim and I have seen him very occasionally. I find it triggering, which is why I mostly avoid seeing him.

I want to emphasise that my DM didn’t know what was going on, despite me making it very clear that I didn’t like being near our F. So it went on, and my siblings and I have been badly damaged; we all suffer from PTSD and my DB has a lot of other issues too. (Thankfully my F is dead now.)

Another point is that by allowing continuing contact between your DC and their Grandad, you’re giving your DC the message that he’s an adult that you trust.

If the bath thing and blanket thing has been going on then you need to focus your attention on supporting your boys and getting them some help to open up because the abuse has already happened. So sorry this is your situation but it's time to act in the interest of your children and pretend grandad is a stranger if that helps your head

It doesn't matter who he is, if I had any suspicions or worries about someone's intentions with my children I would remove them from the situation. You seem to be worried about robbing your children of a grandfather, although from the red flags you have highlighted he could well be a pedophile. Your children won't thank you for enabling this already worrying relationship.

I think it speaks volumes that your husband is so on board with you on this. The accusations against his father are not easy to accept, yet he seems happy to deal with the situation however you see fit, almost as though he knows he is capable of this from growing up with this man.

You've mentioned many occasions of the gf overstepping boundaries you've put in place, he knows what he's doing. Even if he is an 'unaware old man', how would that many any difference to your response of him potentially grooming your children?

I think you are thinking far too much about family politics and the repercussions of these accusations on the wider family rather than protecting your children.

Why would a grown man, or anyone for that matter, be so enthused to see your boys naked in the bath, accompany them to pee, watch them sleep - what explanation other than a sinister one could there be?

Op I know this is horrendous to read, but I too think you need to seriously consider the possibility that abuse has already happened. How long was he alone with the kids in the bath/under the blanket, before you realised? Is there any way something could have happened, before you started to have suspicions? E.g how many opportunities has he had, over the years, to creep into their rooms at night?

I wouldn't take them back. If they query why, explain, and mil will have some choices to make.

I think you sound like a wonderful mother who is taking this seriously and trying to protect her children in the face of a very upsetting situation.

For me, the salient question is; why would any male put themselves in the position where it could even be hinted that their intentions were to harm a child?

I don’t know any male of any age who would put themselves in a bathroom with two naked children that aren’t their son/daughter.

The writing is on the wall OP. I think you and your DH know that no contact is the only way in this situation. There is no innocent explanation for this behaviour.

I suspect the anxiety and ill health you’re feeling is due to the indecision of the situation. Once you make the break it will have its own emotions but partly you will feel relief.

Hope you’re ok OP. What an awful situation. I hope you and your little family stay safe and keep looking after each other xx

@LolaButt

I agree with this. Most men are so hyper vigilant about not crossing any boundaries which could be used as evidence of paedophilia: as much to protect themselves as the children.

The idea that a man who has hitherto not shown an appetite to provide hands on care for these children would suddenly and selflessly show an interest when it involves intimate care is too big a coincidence.

I know it will be incredibly distressing but I think you have to discuss it with him.

Op, I think you are doing your best to keep your sons safe. Horrible situation.

I would take both of your boys to a specially trained therapist.

They will work with them over time to appropriately and sensitively gauge if there are issues.

If there are not no harm done.

If there are this can be worked on sooner rather than later.

If you just avoid the FIL or hover like a hawk over every meeting if there already has been grooming or abuse then this isn’t being healed and this repressed trauma will show up in teenage years as chronic MH issues.

My father abused my daughter. It’s with the police now as to whether there’s enough evidence to charge him.
Please, please, don’t let him have any contact. It’s not enough to police him with your children. It can happen right under your own nose.
It’s fractured and broken the family apart, but I can live with my decision on going to the police. Please listen to your inner voice.

I am so sorry that you are going through a terrible time. I second getting your sons to be seen by a specialist to ensure no assault has occurred. Your final point about his use of a blanket with boys is very concerning.

"Finally, I have noticed he will sit on the sofa with the children, all three of them covered up with a blanket."

It takes an child abuser seconds to offend.

@Neveratruerword I wish you luck. I will have to block this thread. I commented above, but it’s really triggered me.
I’ll say again, please stop all contact and try and enlist professional help to check if your children have been abused by him. My daughter didn’t understand what happened to her was wrong until she was older. If he’s a paedophile he will be a master manipulator, there were no signs with my daughter at all. It’s broken all of us. Good luck

I echo those posters advising professional help in case abuse has already occurred under the blanket. I believe you said he sat with them like that a number of times?

I wonder if the bath was an escalation after getting away with the blanket scenario?

I think you also said your eldest son seemed relieved when you have intervened? I don't think any child should be put in a situation where they feel uncomfortable, even if nothing has yet happened. That is itself a negative thing for them to experience, especially if you decide to continue visits.

I'm so sorry OP. What a horrible situation.

This sounds really difficult, and I think you're doing the right thing.

Don't your PILs think it odd that you don't want to stay overnight? Have they said anything? What did your FIL say when you said no to the baths, etc?

Do you think you could talk to him/MIL about it?

You have control over the situation by making sure the situation does not actually exist. Your dutiful husband can meet his dad without the children present. If need be I would Facetime the guy. He is not repentant. He seemingly has cover up. This seed will grow some poisonous fruit. Let it die peacefully away from your household.

@OakRowan

Thank *@Mummyoflittledragon*, much appreciated, I'm sorry you understand, because of what happened to you too, the physicality of it, the fear. Motherhood gave me a whole new insight into what happened.

Thank you. But actually what pissed me off more was hiding it and sparing grandparent feelings. I was mid teens so had a very different view than you, who was clearly younger, severely and repeatedly abused by multiple adults (I am including those, who failed to protect you and those, who blamed you for speaking out).

@Mummyoflittledragon thanks. It certainly is abusive to send your kids back into a dangerous situation that you have bad feelings about already, to face more of the same. Why would you? Teaching them its ok, that they don't matter as much as the adults. Then growingbinto adulthood being the bearer of it lifelong, because the adults, his adult children still deny and minimise to this day. Its a weight. You can't manage a situation.like this with vigilance and being there. You wouldn't take your kids to visit someone in prison, or leave them with outsiders who you knew were dangerous, ita no different just because they're family, thats the trap, our own conditioning within families, of trust.

'You have control over the situation by making sure the situation does not actually exist'
@hibeat yes THIS, end it, prevent it, put a stop to it. You wouldn't put your kids at risk with known dangerous dogs, or other adults you knew to be criminals, or drug addicts, or drunks, because you thought you could manage the risk, your risk assessment would be to end it, never ever again, there and then. What if its too late already OP, how can you send them back to see him, if he has already hurt them. They will remember, even if they can't tell you now, they will never forget.

The original question was could Grandad harm or abuse my children? Yes, yes he could. Are you going to give him the opportunity? Yes you are. He could do that in front of you, in the same room. He doesnt even has to touch them to damage them. The only way you can prevent it is for him to not be allowed any access to them, to not put them literally in harm's way.

Finally, why are you going to allow him to harm you too, as an adult woman, as their mother, he is abusing you too, hurting you and your DH emotionally and in person. Have boundaries around your own self too, your own body. Protect yourselves, all of you, be the one who takes control of it instead of going back for more. It will destroy you otherwise, the stress of it.

Please do not visit him again. Let dh go on his own.

@Terfydactyl I'm not sure where you are coming from with your post where you tagged me. personal experience, professional experience, 'just another Mumsnetter with an opinion'? But whichever....you described a scenario that was far removed from what I wrote.

I suggested the father spoke to his dad and confronted him.
I didn't suggest the grandad would wriggle out of it and be able to carry on. Not sure why you thought that?

I meant that if the family decide to cut or limit contact, the grandparents will know why.

There is also a grandma on the scene. She may be ignoring it or whatever, but if she is to be stopped seeing her grandsons she deserves an explanation. what she does with that knowledge is for her to decide.