TW. Could Grandad harm or abuse my children?

[Neveratruerword]

My FIL, this summer, on four separate occasions has tried to take my sons for a bath (in the middle of the afternoon) without me or my husband around.

We tend to stay a few nights each time we visit, as we live a considerable distance from them and go to visit for a night or two.

The first time, he managed to get the children (age 7&5) into the bath without us knowing (husband napping downstairs and me unpacking bags). What got me concerned was that he said the children had asked for a bath in the middle of the afternoon whereas later on my mother in law mentioned that it had all been Grandad's idea. So either there was a misunderstanding or Grandad was not telling the truth.

At this point, I had concerns:

1. He has never been a hands on grandad in terms of childcare or hygiene. So why this sudden desire, now the boys are 7 & 5?

1. There is no way my sons would have asked for a bath at 3pm in the afternoon. This idea of an 'activity' has to have come from him. Why not something more normal like walking to the park or a kick about with a ball in the garden?

1. The discrepancies between what my MIL and FIL said had happened.

Bit worrying really but I didn't bother too much at this point.

Anyway, as we had been kept apart all last Christmas until the April due to Covid, we tried to make up for it and made another three trips up to see them between May and August. Each time, Grandad has tried to bath the kids in the afternoon. Myself and husband have shut it down every time with a clear "No thank you Grandad".

In fact, on one of the evenings when we were bathing them ourselves (at the normal time!!) our oldest son stated he wanted privacy so we told Grandad that and didn't allow him in, respecting our sons wishes. FWIW neither of our sons have disclosed anything about Grandad.

I don't know why but he still kept trying to do this ridiculous bathing in the afternoon thing despite us very clearly and firmly (no aggression) shutting it down EVERY time. In my eyes it just isn't appropriate, particularly as he has not been "hands on" in any respect of their lives so far.

It made me very upset to be honest and my husband and I have had to have few very upsetting conversations about his father's intentions.

It also made me aware of how Grandad stays up very late at night, much later than anyone else and on his way to bed he will walk in to the children's room and (I think) watch them. I was aware he did this and before thought he was just being sweet and enjoyed seeing the sleeping children. But now, I am horrified and it has led to me staying awake all night with the bedroom door open, waiting for him to go to bed and being vigilant about him entering the kids room. The fear and lack of sleep felt upsetting. Not going to be able to sleep there again unless I sleep in with the kids.

In addition, recently he has jumped at the chance to accompany either child to do a wee in the bushes (if we have been out and about in the woods without a toilet nearby). Once again, I shut this down every time and felt my son was relieved that I did so.

Finally, I have noticed he will sit on the sofa with the children, all three of them covered up with a blanket. I never gave it ANY thought before all this new, odd behaviour. But now, I am horrified by it and have told my husband we cannot allow it.

In mind I just cannot believe that my FIL could harm his grandsons. On the other hand, these recent behaviours have REALLY upset me and made me concerned. The whole thing has sickened me to be honesg. My instinct is to protect my children at all costs.

Back in August I rang the NSPCC for advice and they validated my concerns and told me (amongst other things-they were wonderfully supportive) to continue being vigilant, to reduce or stop contact if needed and to report to police if any clear abuse happened.

My husband and I have not seen his family since then. Like I said, it has meant some horribly difficult conversations for us and a good few tears.

As we have the distance between us, we have used that as a reason not to meet up through the last school term. Now it is Christmas, we will be stopping with other relatives close by and only doing short ish day trips to see the in laws. I honestly could not cope with an overnight trip at the moment. We hope that shorter trips without the need for any bathtimes at all will put a stop to this behaviour.

I haven't always got along that well with my in laws but the issues we have had in the past have been so trivial and have never stopped us seeing them.

Now that my FIL behaviour has led us to feel it is untoward and potentially concerning, I feel I have been led into a very disturbing place where I have to examine his intentions and consider whether or not he could abuse my children. It feels very dark anf sinister.

We have wondered if the odd behaviour could be an early onset dementia (not something we have brought up with the remainder of the family) or if he really is just clueless as to what is and isn't appropriate behaviour?

I'm not really asking AIBU. I don't feel, when it comes to my children's safety, that IABU at all. I also am not prematurely cutting off the in laws and children's relationship based on a hunch and scant evidence of child abuse.

I am however putting in stronger boundaries re.visits to their home and my husband and I have vowed to each other that we will not leave the children alone with Grandad at all. If anything untoward happens we will be leaving immediately. I am lucky my husband (although sad) is supporting me 100% in this.

I have the strongest feeling that I have to protect my children here and that you cannot rewind in real life so I have to prevent the worst happening. I am dreading the visits but am so, so grateful to my husband for arranging day visits only. Thr overnights and worry would destroy me.

I hope beyond hope that I am wrong and that Grandad poses no threat at all. However, I'm not sure how/if I am ever going to find out the "truth" and will likely spend the rest of their childhood and teen years being cautious etc.

Any advice or perspectives welcome. Please be kind.

To those saying that you don't understand why the op is lot cutting all contact,it's not that simple,maybe you come from an unusual family dynamic but that is also not the best solution. Her Dp will lose everything,all his family relationships will more than likely disappear. How doe that benefit the family
The op needs to be commended for her vigilance,he boys will never be alone or under a blanket with this man so that there is no risk
She is following NSPCC advice without destroying a whole family, well done op

@MsInsomniac

I work with sex offenders. What you describe could most definitely be grooming. I would stop all contact tbh though that will obviously be really difficult and cause many arguments. Are there other boys of same age in family?

Listen to the experts / professionals

I may have missed this being mentioned -
on one of the evenings when we were bathing them ourselves (at the normal time!!) our oldest son stated he wanted privacy so we told Grandad that and didn't allow him in, respecting our sons wishes

Had grandad been in the habit of watching bathtime? Or it was the first time he'd tried it?
Either way, that is very suspicious behaviour.

It's likely that your sons, or at least the older one, already feel uncomfortable around grandad.
Continuing to see him, even in the limited way that you intend, will give your children more discomfort and won't give them a good relationship with grandparents.

Using Sarah's Law is good but won't tell you anything if he has never been caught.

OP I've read all your responses not TFT, but I think you're doing the right thing in the circumstances, particularly as you only see them a few times a year.

Has your DP thought of talking to his dad about how inappropriate this behaviour is, or even you speaking to him about it?

Let your DH see him alone. Keep throwing bones with excuses about why the boys aren’t there.

^^^ this

Absolutely.
Use COVID as an excuse, then important matches, then they are away on a school trip ...

In the very unlikely event that your DH is challenged, he can then brush it off ("I would say it's bad luck but it's the same for lots of families"). Feel free to shamelessly lie, "oh the boys are so looking forward" then "so sorry, (boys) unexpectedly got through to the next round / should be back soon / lift delayed / ah well".

It's super super unlikely that they will seriously sit your DH down and go WHY ARE YOU KEEPING THE GRANDKIDS FROM US because ... that's asking for a confrontation that enabling/head-in-the-sand MiL and dangerous/demented FiL would not want to have. They are getting older and frailer and will not want to provoke your DH to go NC, as they may need his help.

My personal take is it's entirely, completely OK to always arrange that the boys are somewhere else (and you) (and DH if he wants) and.just.lie, because your PiL are either too stupid or too malign or too mentally disturbed to be trusted.

You're stuck because you have plenty evidence of intent, but as far as you know :/ , no evidence of wrong doing that you could take to police, and of course you don't want wrong doing to happen! It's ghastly that your ILs are like this, it's good though that you've seen it. You have all the control over them being anywhere near your kids. All it take is the kids somehow not seeing them this time. For every this time.

I will deprive my children of a grandparent-grandchild relationship

Why would you want to encourage the relationship if you believe they mean your children harm?

There are red flags all over your post. You know instinctively what’s going on here, your conscious mind is just taking a while to process it and catch up.

The thing is, you will never have ‘proof’ until he actually abuses one of your children and they disclose the abuse.

Until then (God forbid) all you have to go on is his extremely dodgy behaviour and your gut. So you need to decide if that’s a high enough standard for you to cut contact. You say he has a problem with ignoring boundaries, so trying to enforce any will be pointless and exhausting to police.

You say cutting contact would ‘ruin lives’, but so could not cutting contact. Whose lives would you rather be ruined?

I don’t see that there’s a middle way here, where you and your husband both know he’s a paedophile with ill intent towards your boys, but you’re both hyper vigilant to a ridiculous degree in order to maintain a pretence that that’s not the case.

Trust your instincts.

We generally navigate through a world where things are predictable and ordered, 99.9% of the time.

Our instincts are designed to help keep us (and those we have to protect) safe. We might not be able to identify exactly what the trigger for kicking off our instincts is, but it is wise to listen to them.

@ESGdance

What are you minimising this?

I'm not. I'm agreeing with the NSPCC and trying to reassure OP. You, however, have let your imagination run wild.

What are your credentials to tell the OP not to panic when she has seen, felted and sensed multiple issues?

How are you able to claim these little boys are not in immediate danger when the NSPCC say otherwise?

They don't. Try reading the thread.

What do you mean by “dodgy behaviour” - did you mean to say grooming or child sexual abuse?

If I'd meant that I would have said it. His behaviour is very odd. OP needs to be aware of this but there is no evidence that there has been abuse. I think OP is dealing with a difficult situation very well, while keeping her children safe.

Looks like it's just me, you and the NSPCC Ankledeep

To those saying that you don't understand why the op is lot cutting all contact,it's not that simple,maybe you come from an unusual family dynamic but that is also not the best solution.

Keeping contact and watching every single hug, look and touch is not the best solution either.

The kids will soon notice that they aren't allowed to even go to the kitchen and get a drink alone and that their parents talk in hushed towns about grandad.

The fear and dread about seeing FIL is not healthy for OP too. Waiting for something to happen is a form of sweeping it under the carpet. I understand why she doesn't want to believe it but she's going to end up having to run constant interference so FIL does not sit with the boys, follow them etc

I think you are managing a really difficult situation perfectly OP. You have identified the potential risk and mitigated it by being hyper vigilant and always present when you're there. I also totally understand your anxiety about whether your instinct is 'off' and you're imagining things, and risk permanently destroying the family but in this case, I think everyone is right - trust your instinct which, being objective, sounds pretty sound, and put your kids before the family relationship. V hard though, really feel for you.

Keeping contact and watching every single hug, look and touch is not the best solution either.

This. You'd literally be standing there waiting for your child to be assaulted.

The NSPCC don't always get it right. What happens in they say minimise contact and the children get abused during that minimal contact?

How awful OP.
Your poor husband.

His father made him feel uncomfortable so perhaps he isn't completely surprised.

Your son's reaction to his grandfather is off.

I would want to ask him, perhaps whilst driving and he is sitting in the back, does grandad make you feel u comfortable? And how?

I think something may have happen that has made your son uncomfortable.

The incidents you relate are terrifying, in that they are so inappropriate and I would find it had to justify any of them as being normal.

Your MIL would not accept or discuss this if you mentioned your concerns?

Kindly, they sound like awful GP's and I would put as much distance as possible between them.
Grandfather is huge inappropriate in his behaviour.
Grandmother would prefer to pretend it isn't happening.

The aren't any loss to your children.

I am not going to reply directly as I am busy now. I am upset too. Othe posters are upset aswell and have messaged me directly to say so. This is why I put a TW on the post.

Why didn't I say anything at the time of the bath when he bypassed me and my husband ? I don't know. I didn't know what was going on at the time and just didn't immediately register that it was weird, or perhaps I did feel it was odd but my brain didn't make the immediate leap to sinister and sexual.

There are lots of posters here who state they'd be storming out at the first sign of anything untoward. Well I don't think it works like that. That's how these people clearly operate. I have had my fair share of spats with the man over the years, he's proven to be quite the misogynist to be honest. I haven't stood for everything although I have let some stuff slide, just to keep the peace. I am now hypervigilant that there will be no more keeping the peace.

The amount of times I have practiced the words I WANT to say to him in my head over the last few months is ridiculous.

I'd like to point out that after the time he sneakily gave my kids a bath in the afternoon with out asking us, each subsequent time he requested to bath the children in the middle of the afternoon I shut it down firmly. My husband also said no, firmly. No, we didn't question him but between the two of us we realised it was wrong and odd.
The wee in the wood incident was actually at an outdoor meeting up we did before we were able to mix indoors again so therefore it was before the bath incidents and I shut that down instantly with no and a comment about privacy.

I have been in touch and listening to the professionals, a lovely kind man at the NSPCC who referred the case to a senior advisor to get further support for us. Even if the people who post and say so are professionals, them posting in a personal capacity on Mumsnet is not an appropriate way for me to access professional advice.

With Sarah's Law, for the pp who enquired, it says that they will be in touch within 24 hours if there is a need to know situation. I have given all the info I can to them (more than I have gone into here, obviously) and I am hopeful that they will be in contact for the interview stage soon. Obviously if it turns up nothing, then our vigilance/boundaries etc remain the same.

I feel that some PPs literally think I am going to drop my kids off there with no regard. This is so far from the truth. Since August we have been at least 200 miles away from the man at all times.

This sounds as dodgy as fuck. There are only two explanations as far as I can tell:

1. He's a paedophile
2. Dementia is causing him to not understand what is and isn't appropriate

Either way you're right to be VERY cautious around him and it sounds like you're taking sensible precautions.

One thing I would add is if you visit his home (or he yours) have a good look around the bathroom and any areas where the children might undress to ensure there aren't any covert cameras around. Google "disguised cameras" or similar terms to get an idea of what they look like - the main ones are in smoke detectors, light bulbs, clothes hooks, pens, plugs and clocks so be suspicious if there are any of these things in their home and look at them very closely to spot any unusual elements that look like they could be cameras. There are also cameras that look like buttons or screwheads, so be wary of these too.

IF he's an abuser it would be fairly typical if he enjoys voyeurism as part of his paedophilic tendencies.

Don't worry about looking daft as you poke around the bathroom, the only way he'd find out is if he's actually got a camera in there.

I totally understand why you are working with your DH to minimise contact, without causing a family rift - I would also hesitate to bring this up if I felt that no wrongdoing had taken place with relation to my DC.
IMO it’s important for people who HAVE experienced some kind of abuse to bring this into the open, and as a DIL, who hasn’t exactly been wronged, you could be made a scapegoat for any subsequent family disruption and fallout.
I was in the same position as you, with my DH being the only one of his brothers who hadn’t been abused by the family member. In the end, it was one of the victims that told his family, the abuser was banned afterwards and a lot of tears were shed (my PIL had no idea it had happened).
My DH felt very guilty for not having realised it had happened to his brothers, but confessed that if he had known, he wouldn’t have wanted to “out” the abuser, because he had not been a victim (he would have supported his DB’s to come forward with the accusations though)
Sorry you are going through this, but you are doing the right thing.

"I feel that some PPs literally think I am going to drop my kids off there with no regard."

I'm not sure about that!

More that your plan for totally vigilance may not be workable & that obviously any consequences would be to your sons.

If you could ask them whether or not to take the risk-what do you think that they would say?

After your recent update OP I still think that either your husband or both of you need to sit down with his father and talk this over.

You could act 'innocently' and say his behaviour is that of people who groom children. You can stop short of accusing him outright. But you have to let him know you are 'onto him' and have clocked his behaviour.

Horrible things happen in families because no one dares discuss them.

Children don't tell their parents they have been abused.

Can you see that by remaining silent you are helping no one and almost ignoring his behaviour?

What's the point reducing visits, without being open about why?

And why are YOU doing all the worrying and posting for advice when it's your H's father?

For goodness sake, both of you 'man/ woman up' and talk to the FIL.

So you go for a short closely supervised visit. FIL quite naturally goes to hug kids in your full view. You'd want to throw up wouldn't you? You've got to stop it, your kids will spot the tension before you even arrive.

I think there's a point to consider OP that if abuse has already happened, any contact could be traumatic for your sons even if it never happens again.

It's very hard to know whether something has already happened and you cannot rely on your kids to tell you. If my parents had asked me if i wanted to see/do stuff with my abuser and his family i don't know whether i would have said yes or not, but it came out in different ways - not wanting to do the particular hobby that our families shared. You could try getting at it very softly and indirectly but you have to be alive to the fact that they may not be able to tell you even though they have had some conversations about secrets etc. My abuser never threatened me or asked me to keep a secret, he didn't need to, just relied on the fact that he was a trusted friend of my parents.

I think you must definitely keep this man away from your children

@Neveratruerword - I am really impressed with the way you and your DH have handled this awful situation. While it is possible that your FIL could have frontal lobe dementia (where damage to frontal lobe removes the “filter” that inhibits patients from acting out inappropriate sexually), you are not describing the usual violent and explosive fits of irrational anger that go with it. *This kind of dementia is usually associated with repeated, significant head injuries, ie via contact sports like rugby, bronco riding, boxing or American Football. It’s not looking likely.
I was taught by a policewoman to teach my kids to parrot that “we don’t keep secrets in our family.” As there is never a good reason to keep secrets from your parents. Even if mummy or daddy or one of the grandparents wants you to keep a secret, you must tell everyone. There is a no secret rule all the time. Any adult wanting you to keep a secret isn’t doing the right thing.

@Interrobanger Very well put.

I have to say, I agree with others who suggest just your DH going the next few times - and lying if you have to about where the kids are. You're processing a lot right now, and it may take a bit of time to figure out what you and your DH want to do. The main thing is: the kids should not be near this person whilst you are working through things. I'd prioritise talking to siblings first over talking to them, if any other kids are potentially at risk. It can be hard to deal with many 'fronts' in a family at once. I'd also consider therapy for you and your DH. This is really unthinkably hard stuff to deal with, and it strike me that you could maybe do with some skilled support, both individually and as a couple?.

I wouldn’t let him near my children at all, at best he’s loosing his mind at worst he’s a pedo. DH can visit them on his own if they kick up a fuss then it’s time for them to know how uncomfortable they have made things and your suspicions. You will make yourself extremely unwell every time u know you have to see them otherwise, even a hello hug would make you want to explode.