TW. Could Grandad harm or abuse my children?

[Neveratruerword]

My FIL, this summer, on four separate occasions has tried to take my sons for a bath (in the middle of the afternoon) without me or my husband around.

We tend to stay a few nights each time we visit, as we live a considerable distance from them and go to visit for a night or two.

The first time, he managed to get the children (age 7&5) into the bath without us knowing (husband napping downstairs and me unpacking bags). What got me concerned was that he said the children had asked for a bath in the middle of the afternoon whereas later on my mother in law mentioned that it had all been Grandad's idea. So either there was a misunderstanding or Grandad was not telling the truth.

At this point, I had concerns:

1. He has never been a hands on grandad in terms of childcare or hygiene. So why this sudden desire, now the boys are 7 & 5?

1. There is no way my sons would have asked for a bath at 3pm in the afternoon. This idea of an 'activity' has to have come from him. Why not something more normal like walking to the park or a kick about with a ball in the garden?

1. The discrepancies between what my MIL and FIL said had happened.

Bit worrying really but I didn't bother too much at this point.

Anyway, as we had been kept apart all last Christmas until the April due to Covid, we tried to make up for it and made another three trips up to see them between May and August. Each time, Grandad has tried to bath the kids in the afternoon. Myself and husband have shut it down every time with a clear "No thank you Grandad".

In fact, on one of the evenings when we were bathing them ourselves (at the normal time!!) our oldest son stated he wanted privacy so we told Grandad that and didn't allow him in, respecting our sons wishes. FWIW neither of our sons have disclosed anything about Grandad.

I don't know why but he still kept trying to do this ridiculous bathing in the afternoon thing despite us very clearly and firmly (no aggression) shutting it down EVERY time. In my eyes it just isn't appropriate, particularly as he has not been "hands on" in any respect of their lives so far.

It made me very upset to be honest and my husband and I have had to have few very upsetting conversations about his father's intentions.

It also made me aware of how Grandad stays up very late at night, much later than anyone else and on his way to bed he will walk in to the children's room and (I think) watch them. I was aware he did this and before thought he was just being sweet and enjoyed seeing the sleeping children. But now, I am horrified and it has led to me staying awake all night with the bedroom door open, waiting for him to go to bed and being vigilant about him entering the kids room. The fear and lack of sleep felt upsetting. Not going to be able to sleep there again unless I sleep in with the kids.

In addition, recently he has jumped at the chance to accompany either child to do a wee in the bushes (if we have been out and about in the woods without a toilet nearby). Once again, I shut this down every time and felt my son was relieved that I did so.

Finally, I have noticed he will sit on the sofa with the children, all three of them covered up with a blanket. I never gave it ANY thought before all this new, odd behaviour. But now, I am horrified by it and have told my husband we cannot allow it.

In mind I just cannot believe that my FIL could harm his grandsons. On the other hand, these recent behaviours have REALLY upset me and made me concerned. The whole thing has sickened me to be honesg. My instinct is to protect my children at all costs.

Back in August I rang the NSPCC for advice and they validated my concerns and told me (amongst other things-they were wonderfully supportive) to continue being vigilant, to reduce or stop contact if needed and to report to police if any clear abuse happened.

My husband and I have not seen his family since then. Like I said, it has meant some horribly difficult conversations for us and a good few tears.

As we have the distance between us, we have used that as a reason not to meet up through the last school term. Now it is Christmas, we will be stopping with other relatives close by and only doing short ish day trips to see the in laws. I honestly could not cope with an overnight trip at the moment. We hope that shorter trips without the need for any bathtimes at all will put a stop to this behaviour.

I haven't always got along that well with my in laws but the issues we have had in the past have been so trivial and have never stopped us seeing them.

Now that my FIL behaviour has led us to feel it is untoward and potentially concerning, I feel I have been led into a very disturbing place where I have to examine his intentions and consider whether or not he could abuse my children. It feels very dark anf sinister.

We have wondered if the odd behaviour could be an early onset dementia (not something we have brought up with the remainder of the family) or if he really is just clueless as to what is and isn't appropriate behaviour?

I'm not really asking AIBU. I don't feel, when it comes to my children's safety, that IABU at all. I also am not prematurely cutting off the in laws and children's relationship based on a hunch and scant evidence of child abuse.

I am however putting in stronger boundaries re.visits to their home and my husband and I have vowed to each other that we will not leave the children alone with Grandad at all. If anything untoward happens we will be leaving immediately. I am lucky my husband (although sad) is supporting me 100% in this.

I have the strongest feeling that I have to protect my children here and that you cannot rewind in real life so I have to prevent the worst happening. I am dreading the visits but am so, so grateful to my husband for arranging day visits only. Thr overnights and worry would destroy me.

I hope beyond hope that I am wrong and that Grandad poses no threat at all. However, I'm not sure how/if I am ever going to find out the "truth" and will likely spend the rest of their childhood and teen years being cautious etc.

Any advice or perspectives welcome. Please be kind.

That would be enough for me to stop any opportunity for him to be alone with them. It just isn't needed in terms of their daily care needs. Have you tried having a conversation about consent with them and explaining that until the children are able to provide informed consent, only you and their dad will be helping them with intimate care such as washing, bathing, and going to the toilet. I think I'd try and address it as this is our preference for our children so that they develop a strong sense of their own personal boundaries and can you please respect that. I think his reaction to that would be quite telling.

You sound very aware and are undoubtedly doing the best thing by avoiding him, protecting your children and minimising contact.

It must be deeply disturbing for you both, but especially his son. How is he coping?

Oh what an awful,difficult situation you are in. My heart goes out to you. I know u said that the boys have not disclosed anything but firstly I would have a simple conversation with the kids and just talk about games in general. Not focussing on grandad and say do ye like playing games? Who plays games with ye in school? Who plays games with ye at home? Who plays the funnest games and who plays games that ye don't like?
Just lead the conversation to see if they have a change in attitude to grandad.
Also,gauge their responses very carefully when u say we might go visit grandma and grandad.
Now, the most important thing is that u can never ever ever spend the night there again. At some stage you will have to sleep and predators will wait for their chance. Never ever do an overnight again,make up any story you have to but NEVER again.
I'm so sorry for u and your husband,it must be so difficult to have these conversations with your husband.

@tiredinoratia

Yes I think that is what I need to prepare to say. I am pretty calm as a person but I can see myself flying off the handle if my anxiety or stress is high and he tries one more thing.

My husband knows this and he knows we will just leave and not return. I'd hate for the kids to see this unfold so your suggestion of a very firm explanation of our own boundaries regarding bodily autonomy is ideal. Thank you.

My MIL would be entirely incapable of having these conversations with us. She would ignore, shut it down and never speak of it again.This is how they operate.

And, this being the case, you should not, and cannot, allow your boys to spend time in their company. Your mother in law may choose to ignore such conversations; you can equally choose to stop allowing your children to visit.

You're clearly an intelligent lady @Neveratruerword and I'm posting here from a place of kindness, but as a previous poster has said, this isn't a normal safeguarding situation. There is already an identified risk here, it now behoves you to act upon it.

Also, could you really tolerate spending any time (no matter how short a period) in the company of this man with the suspicions you have already raised? Please don't subject your boys to this.

I don't have the answers here - but I think your husband will have to visit his parents on his own going forward.

What does your husband say he was like as a father when he was a child?

@atlaspine

Yes my husband is very distressed by it. By nature he is a stoic/internalises things so it's not like he is sobbing about it or talking about it all the time. He has never minimized it and he is 100% supporting me.

Also, have a very direct conversation with both your children about their safety and about how no adult. Including aunts and uncles and grandparents etc...has the right to feel or see their private parts and how they have no need ever to see an adults private parts.
Explain very directly that even if someone tries either of the above they must come to tell you or dad immediately. It's never too early to have these talks with children.
At the same time,making it clear that there is no shame surrounding private parts but that they hold all authority around who accompanies them to toilet or swimming or changing etc..

What a difficult situation. I understand completely that you must be swinging from being hyper vigilant and suspicious to wondering if you are imagining the whole thing and being paranoid and being terribly unfair.

I'm glad your husband is on board. That speaks volumes to be honest. Has he agreed to go along with the rules you've set just to appease you, or does he actually agree that his father's behaviour is odd and needs careful monitoring?

I think all you can do is continue exactly as you are, until you have some firm evidence that his intentions are not decent. And hopefully your continued vigilance will mean that situation never arises, so problem averted.

The fallout from making an accusation that is unfounded would be terrible for the family and hard to recover from. Try to have a discussion with your children about what is inappropriate behaviour from a grown-up and make sure they understand that they can and must tell you about it always, even if it's someone they love and don't want to get into trouble. Don't plant the idea of Grandad in their heads but do enough that if Grandad has behaved inappropriately, or does in future, they are able to recognise it and articulate it.

But of course you are doing the right thing by staying vigilant and minimising contact without you or your DH there at all times.

If your FIL tries to engineer a situation where he is alone with them in a a potentially intimate situation, such as offering to take them to the loo or whatever, then your DH needs to step in and say 'Thanks Dad but that's not really appropriate, is it? They are at an age where they want some privacy and we are trying to teach them about adults overstepping boundaries. If they need that sort of help it should be me or their mum that does it.'

If he becomes hugely angry and defensive then you might have your answer. If after saying 'No thanks Dad' to the baths and the wees etc, you feel he's trying to find new and more inventive ways of getting the DC alone with him, such as offering to do things and take them places that he wouldn't usually do, then you have your answer.

@pansypotter123

I feel sickened to spend any time in his company.

Since the summer I have had recurring bouts of anxiety, nausea and uncertainty surrounding the situation. I have shared all the info with my parents and sister (my husband knows this) and they also feel it is very odd, concerning behaviour.

@douliket

Thank you for your responses. The children have been introduced to the NSPCC "What's in your pants belongs only to you" song and campaign at school. We built on that narrative around their private parts before these issues with Grandad and since.

I impress on them that anyone who talls you to keep a secret that makes you feel bad is wrong and that they can always tell me. I have not directly questioned them about Grandad, in accordance with what I have spoken to the NSPCC advisor and senior advisor about.

@FictionalCharacter

Have you read the replies on the other thread from people who were abused by grandfathers, uncles etc when their parents and other people were actually in the room? I understand you have decided not to let them be alone with him. I’m just saying it’s not enough and the only safe level of contact is none. Normal safeguarding is for when there is a normal level of risk i.e. there could be someone around who is up to no good so you take reasonable precautions with everyone. In your case you have very clear evidence, so you need to act more drastically.

I am not going to say you are disgusting or tell you that you're terrible. But this poster is correct.

I felt itchy reading your post, there are serious red flags. The blanket thing made my throat feel tight.
I think I'd be sending DH alone and at maximum seeing them in a restaurant where he has no excuse to touch them and ensuring children had full "security detail" for bathroom trips.

Really difficult situation as its so nuclear. It also means sadly you cannot ever let your children be unsupervised /alone with any of your husbands siblings as they can /will give FIL access to your children

@FictionalCharacter

Have you read the replies on the other thread from people who were abused by grandfathers, uncles etc when their parents and other people were actually in the room? I understand you have decided not to let them be alone with him. I’m just saying it’s not enough and the only safe level of contact is none. Normal safeguarding is for when there is a normal level of risk i.e. there could be someone around who is up to no good so you take reasonable precautions with everyone. In your case you have very clear evidence, so you need to act more drastically.

This....

It's a high level of risk... And he is blatantly seeking to have your young children naked, in PRIVATE without your supervision...

This is really worrying Red flags for paedophile grooming/offending.

I can't see any other explanation... WHY WOULD ANYONE SEEK this with kids??

As you say, this isn't a hands on grandfather that's been involved with them heavily...

The blanket thing is very worrying and a well known ruse of sex offenders.... Almost plausible deniability... Esp in winter time.

Good that your son is already asserting boundaries, but given their ages you need to really step in forcefully...

So,

I would NEVER stay overnight with them again... Even if the kids were staying in a room with you... Plenty of opportunity when everyone is sleeping or interrupting a night time loo visit of a small child. (think this is what Rolf Harris did)

In fact I wouldn't be visiting him at all....it's just too risky with what you've reported here.

Sadly you won't get definite proof will you, which is really horrid... ( Unless there is a historical abuse victim came forward.) or, if your kids disclose an offence against them,so hope it hasn't gone this far.

Either...

He is guilty and is a paedophile and is grooming them.

Or he has questionable appropriateness and is not motivated by a sexual motive.

So his wife will deny his behaviour....which is another massive risk factor.

Please ensure any other family /people with small children are aware of this behaviour. If necessary via NSPCC... /police

Abuse thrives on secrecy.

I'd also try and call the police and speak to their child protection unit. He's had contact with your kids and all you say here is worrying... Don't know whether you can do a Sarah's law request.

I beleove they cna also report 'soft intelligence'.... ie where there have been complaints that haven't been prosecutable.

This would be very useful Information for you to have.

@NdujaWannaDance

Thank you for your ability to see the bigger picture. Your plan of action has articulated what I have intended to do in my own mind.

My husband will be able to say that to his dad. His dad has always had boundary issues and we have had to step in and say stuff before....but about non-predatory things such a safe behaviour at parks or listening to us when we say 'No' about sipping on smoothies all day, for example.

My children are everything to me. I am NOT going to allow that man to harm them.

However, what if this is just a stupid and unaware older man making bad choices with no ill intent? I will deprive my children of a grandparent-grandchild relationship and splinter my husband's family based on an (somewhat) unfounded accusation.

Their safety is my utmost concern and always will be.

He sounds like a peadophile I don't think I'd ever want to see him again after bathing my kids without my consent when am right there. There's no dementia there.

[quote Neveratruerword]@pansypotter123

I feel sickened to spend any time in his company.

Since the summer I have had recurring bouts of anxiety, nausea and uncertainty surrounding the situation. I have shared all the info with my parents and sister (my husband knows this) and they also feel it is very odd, concerning behaviour.[/quote]
I think the fact is affecting your physical health is your body telling you something is very very wrong.

Given this update I don't think you can have the children in his presence again. Period. For their sake and yours.

Would your husband agree to counselling to discuss and agree a proper action plan together? You can't go on like this it sounds like it's destroying your health...

@NoNameHere12

Sorry but your behaviour is disgusting.

Your more worried about hurting your pother in laws feelings and falling out with precious family than ensuring your sons safety by cutting contact.

You might think it’s all brushed under the carpet but your sons will never forgive you, and they will always know you didn’t protect them.

You need to get your priorities straight- there supposed to be your kids. Cut contact and screw the family, your sons should come first!!

What rubbish. I get that your response might be appropriate for people who are not seeing the red flags, not listening to what their children tell them, or are seeing/hearing but excusing or being in total denial about it.

This is absolutely not the situation here. In the real world people don't go around blowing up otherwise happy family relationships on an unproven hunch.

The OP is doing exactly the right thing. She's told her DH, which must have been extremely hard. Luckily he is listening and not dismissing her concerns, but as yet there is no suggestion that anything untoward has happened - merely a fear that attempts may have been made to isolate the kids for inappropriate reasons. They are carefully monitoring the situation and doing everything they can to minimise risk.

The sons may have absolutely nothing to forgive and if the OP and her DH carry on doing what they are doing, it should stay that way.

'Cut contact and screw the family' is easier said than done and is very upsetting for all concerned. It's not something you can or should do lightly, but of course if it transpires that their suspicions were correct then I think the OP and her DH have a pretty good handle on what needs to be done.

@totalwasteofpaper

There is no chance of husband's siblings looking after my children. One lives abroad. One never has, hasn't offered, and now, sadly, will never be allowed the opportunity.

[quote Neveratruerword]@NdujaWannaDance

Thank you for your ability to see the bigger picture. Your plan of action has articulated what I have intended to do in my own mind.

My husband will be able to say that to his dad. His dad has always had boundary issues and we have had to step in and say stuff before....but about non-predatory things such a safe behaviour at parks or listening to us when we say 'No' about sipping on smoothies all day, for example.

My children are everything to me. I am NOT going to allow that man to harm them.

However, what if this is just a stupid and unaware older man making bad choices with no ill intent? I will deprive my children of a grandparent-grandchild relationship and splinter my husband's family based on an (somewhat) unfounded accusation.

Their safety is my utmost concern and always will be.[/quote]
Even if he didn't know what he was doing (which sounds unlikely), it's impact over intent. Even if he 'didn't mean it', he would cause real harm to the children. It doesn't matter why he did it, if it ends up causing lasting trauma.

So sorry you're in this situation OP. I would agree with pp that you cannot ever see him in a private space again, at the bare minimum. Public meets or no contact only.

I think you're doing everything right OP. I just wanted to say that as I know some other posters disagree but you barely see them anyway and you and your DH are closely monitoring the situation and only having brief visits where FIL won't be left alone with your boys.
A PP said there was very clear evidence . If there was clear evidence then OP would have the police involved. There are a lot of red flags but not 'clear evidence' and this is why it's so difficult to navigate. What a horrible situation for you and your DH but it's great that he's supporting you.

@Totalwasteofpaper

Yes my physical response to the situation is one reason I am being so cautious about it all. I am listening to my intuition, my gut instinct, what my body is telling me.

However, what if this is just a stupid and unaware older man making bad choices with no ill intent?
I’m afraid that isn’t a plausible explanation. An unaware person wouldn’t be so persistent in trying to bath them.

I will deprive my children of a grandparent-grandchild relationship
The relationship you describe doesn’t sound like a good one in any way, and your sons wouldn’t suffer for losing it.

Since the summer I have had recurring bouts of anxiety, nausea and uncertainty surrounding the situation. I have shared all the info with my parents and sister (my husband knows this) and they also feel it is very odd, concerning behaviour.

Okay, just seen this. Please don't take this the wrong way, but:

Do you have issues with heightened anxiety generally? Or is your anxiety purely related to this? How is your husband reacting to what you've described here? Do you feel he's simply going along with your wishes to be hypervigilant around FIL because he wants to keep you calm on the subject, or does he fully acknowledge that his dad's behaviour is suspicious and does not attempt to to tell you it's in your mind?

To all of you who are telling me that these are very unlikely/not the actions of an unaware person or a person with dementia....I agree. I know this deep down.

I suppose what I am trying to show, perhaps to myself more than to anyone else, is that I have considered other possibilities and none of them really wash. The man I spoke to at the NSPCC said the same.