TW. Could Grandad harm or abuse my children?

[Neveratruerword]

My FIL, this summer, on four separate occasions has tried to take my sons for a bath (in the middle of the afternoon) without me or my husband around.

We tend to stay a few nights each time we visit, as we live a considerable distance from them and go to visit for a night or two.

The first time, he managed to get the children (age 7&5) into the bath without us knowing (husband napping downstairs and me unpacking bags). What got me concerned was that he said the children had asked for a bath in the middle of the afternoon whereas later on my mother in law mentioned that it had all been Grandad's idea. So either there was a misunderstanding or Grandad was not telling the truth.

At this point, I had concerns:

1. He has never been a hands on grandad in terms of childcare or hygiene. So why this sudden desire, now the boys are 7 & 5?

1. There is no way my sons would have asked for a bath at 3pm in the afternoon. This idea of an 'activity' has to have come from him. Why not something more normal like walking to the park or a kick about with a ball in the garden?

1. The discrepancies between what my MIL and FIL said had happened.

Bit worrying really but I didn't bother too much at this point.

Anyway, as we had been kept apart all last Christmas until the April due to Covid, we tried to make up for it and made another three trips up to see them between May and August. Each time, Grandad has tried to bath the kids in the afternoon. Myself and husband have shut it down every time with a clear "No thank you Grandad".

In fact, on one of the evenings when we were bathing them ourselves (at the normal time!!) our oldest son stated he wanted privacy so we told Grandad that and didn't allow him in, respecting our sons wishes. FWIW neither of our sons have disclosed anything about Grandad.

I don't know why but he still kept trying to do this ridiculous bathing in the afternoon thing despite us very clearly and firmly (no aggression) shutting it down EVERY time. In my eyes it just isn't appropriate, particularly as he has not been "hands on" in any respect of their lives so far.

It made me very upset to be honest and my husband and I have had to have few very upsetting conversations about his father's intentions.

It also made me aware of how Grandad stays up very late at night, much later than anyone else and on his way to bed he will walk in to the children's room and (I think) watch them. I was aware he did this and before thought he was just being sweet and enjoyed seeing the sleeping children. But now, I am horrified and it has led to me staying awake all night with the bedroom door open, waiting for him to go to bed and being vigilant about him entering the kids room. The fear and lack of sleep felt upsetting. Not going to be able to sleep there again unless I sleep in with the kids.

In addition, recently he has jumped at the chance to accompany either child to do a wee in the bushes (if we have been out and about in the woods without a toilet nearby). Once again, I shut this down every time and felt my son was relieved that I did so.

Finally, I have noticed he will sit on the sofa with the children, all three of them covered up with a blanket. I never gave it ANY thought before all this new, odd behaviour. But now, I am horrified by it and have told my husband we cannot allow it.

In mind I just cannot believe that my FIL could harm his grandsons. On the other hand, these recent behaviours have REALLY upset me and made me concerned. The whole thing has sickened me to be honesg. My instinct is to protect my children at all costs.

Back in August I rang the NSPCC for advice and they validated my concerns and told me (amongst other things-they were wonderfully supportive) to continue being vigilant, to reduce or stop contact if needed and to report to police if any clear abuse happened.

My husband and I have not seen his family since then. Like I said, it has meant some horribly difficult conversations for us and a good few tears.

As we have the distance between us, we have used that as a reason not to meet up through the last school term. Now it is Christmas, we will be stopping with other relatives close by and only doing short ish day trips to see the in laws. I honestly could not cope with an overnight trip at the moment. We hope that shorter trips without the need for any bathtimes at all will put a stop to this behaviour.

I haven't always got along that well with my in laws but the issues we have had in the past have been so trivial and have never stopped us seeing them.

Now that my FIL behaviour has led us to feel it is untoward and potentially concerning, I feel I have been led into a very disturbing place where I have to examine his intentions and consider whether or not he could abuse my children. It feels very dark anf sinister.

We have wondered if the odd behaviour could be an early onset dementia (not something we have brought up with the remainder of the family) or if he really is just clueless as to what is and isn't appropriate behaviour?

I'm not really asking AIBU. I don't feel, when it comes to my children's safety, that IABU at all. I also am not prematurely cutting off the in laws and children's relationship based on a hunch and scant evidence of child abuse.

I am however putting in stronger boundaries re.visits to their home and my husband and I have vowed to each other that we will not leave the children alone with Grandad at all. If anything untoward happens we will be leaving immediately. I am lucky my husband (although sad) is supporting me 100% in this.

I have the strongest feeling that I have to protect my children here and that you cannot rewind in real life so I have to prevent the worst happening. I am dreading the visits but am so, so grateful to my husband for arranging day visits only. Thr overnights and worry would destroy me.

I hope beyond hope that I am wrong and that Grandad poses no threat at all. However, I'm not sure how/if I am ever going to find out the "truth" and will likely spend the rest of their childhood and teen years being cautious etc.

Any advice or perspectives welcome. Please be kind.

Keep a completely open dialog with your children. Talk about private parts, secrets, who we can trust. Talk about who can touch their privates and in what situations. For example: I say "Remember, your privates are for you only. Can you remember who can touch them" and she will say "only me, but if I need cream, then you can touch it to put it on, but only if I say yes". We talk about consent, that secrets can't be kept. I talk about it randomly in the car, or in the bath, or watching tv eg, if you tell me a special secret, I will believe you. I am always slipping things in to conversation so it's normal to be discussed.

trust your gut.

Im sure you have concluded now you will never leave them alone but i would be in the same boat.

no-one in the world bathes my children except parents, they are never left alone with anyone who i do not feel 100% comfortable with.

I would rather be cautious and offend them than put my children at risk

My step-granddad used to stroke my DM in bed with her and her DM when she was a teenager after she lived with them from age 13. Nothing else happened and she/her DM never brought it up - step-dad and nana never had children though he wanted them.

FFW to when me and DB were young kids and went round there. My DM always used to ensure that we were never alone or were kept an eye on if step-grandad was around. He had pets like a tortoise that we'd find in the garden and he'd come out with us or we'd go in their large office area (they had a business in the bottom half of one of two large houses) and play on the swivel office chairs and typewriters and he might be there doing work.

To his credit he never did touch us or make inappropriate comments but he was 'eccentric' as he was upper class and had had a nanny and privileged lifestyle. We only stayed over there a handful of times though (maybe due to this?) and he certainly never took us to the toilet. I can't recall what age we were when DM told us what her stepdad did to her but it was an quite open childhood with her and if we had said anything strange had happened with him we'd have had limited or no visits to the grandparents and there would've been a scene.

In your case you can either keep on taking the DC to see him and just grey rock FIL and keep kids limited or no contact whilst he's there with them and saying no but keeping a strict eye on your DC at all times to ensure they're not in contact with him. You could also do with stepgrandad did be in other rooms - nana let rooms in one house and she was unofficially separated from stepgrandad so he had his own bedroom/living room in the other adjoining house and she cooked for him - so we would often see him there. Or you can do an about turn and limit/cease contact with him.

op you are really dancing around this, trying to justify all the incidents and then waiting for something to actually happen. Your son feels relieved when you step in, that tells you something doesn't it ?? I would cut contact.

You might lose family relationships if you go NC but you'll lose a relationship with your sons if you allow them to be abused and they realise that when they're older and trying to come to terms with what has happened to them. What's more important? Your DH agrees and there are solid behaviours, it's not like this apprehension has come from nowhere. How could you forgive yourself knowing you had these suspicions and ignored them and your DC were hurt?

I just wanted to chip in and say it's great that the OP is encouraging her kids to talk. But I wouldn't rely on that too much. I don't know what it is about abuse but it's so hard to talk about as a kid, even if it's happening and you need help. It's like some crazy voodoo shit has cast a spell on your lips. Friends of mine who are foster parents have a therapist who advised using a toy like this which can be drawn on and then washed. It isn't a fail safe option either, as there may be nothing to draw - just a dim, fuzzy feeling of being unsafe or 'not right'. But over the years, some pretty scary things have been drawn on the toy (sharp animalistic teeth, erect genitalia etc), which helped them and social workers figure out what was going on. Kids seem reassured that he can just be washed, so no one else will ever see what they have drawn uk.tomy.com/products/original-doodle-bear-14%CA%BA-plush-toy-3-washable-markers-chef

I can't believe that the OP's husband has not had a word with his father.

This needs to be brought out into the open.

Keeping quiet is maintaining a 'dirty family secret'.

Sorry, I should have explained that while my adult childrens' reminiscences weren't sinister, there have been things that scared them at the time, but they weren't able to articulate to us at that young age.

A long-winded way of saying that children very often don't have the vocabulary or understanding to tell parents that something has scared them. So as parents, we shouldn't just assume a child will be able to tell us if something has happened, sadly.

Am I correct in saying that you have never actually addressed this ? You have never said Why would you want children to take a bath in the afternoon ? TBH I wouldn't be going if you say you have to always have the children in your sight .

I understand your angst op, if fil is just an idiot then you are punishing him for no reason. However you are really not being unreasonable, it’s not ok behaviour for any reason. Your children are telling you they don’t like it by asking for privacy and he’s still pushing to behave so badly… a loving gp would have backed right off already. So choices are to ask him wtf he is doing, see what he says and considering your dh relationship you need to be there. continue as you are living a horrendous life on eggshells every time you visit , second guessing yourself and not being able to let your children out of sight for a second (because assault takes no time at all, even in a public toilets if you meet for a meal out ), or go no contact. Your dh is at least on the Same page, which means he thinks abuse is probable I’m afraid, so for me it would be a mix of option 1 and option 3.

The minimising by OP and the posters is worrying.

If it was someone clueless, there would have only been one bath incident, lots of apologies and no lying about it imo. No attempts to take your sons to have a wee in the bushes etc

I'd be wondering about your h's upbringing too. As a young boy, did he also face this disgusting interest from his Dad? As your h is very private, he's unlikely to confess or dwell but I'm pleased he's on the same page.

Only read your opening post but no way would my kids be going anywhere near that man.

@KittyBurrito

Absolutely it's hard for children to talk about abuse. Relying on your children telling you something to assess the severity of the situation is therefore not a reliable strategy.

If abuse has already occurred, the OP has no idea what the FIL might have told the children to silence them.

My family members who were abused were told that their parents would die if they told them what had happened.

They were so terrified they never breathed a word until they were old enough to realise that wasn't true. In the meantime more abuse was happening to other family members because no one was able to say anything.

Honestly I can't say this strongly enough, as someone who has experienced this in their own family.

KEEP YOUR CHILDREN AWAY FROM THIS MAN.

Even if you are in the same room, even if you watch all the time, you will NEVER be able to guarantee you can keep them safe. Abusers are devious and they will find a way, any way, to get what they want.

Trust your instincts. You need to keep your children away from your FIL. And your DH MUST talk to his siblings. Knowing silence on this is so damaging. Silence enables perpetrators to get away with abuse but also to inflict abuse on unsuspecting others. If your DH's siblings have children, you could be exposing them to abuse if you don't say something. I know absolutely how hard this is but your children's safety comes before everything.

You have never said Why would you want children to take a bath in the afternoon ?

Exactly, why wouldn't you ask this. You still seem to be skirting around this issue. I can't imagine this happening to my dc and not asking and demanding some answers as to why they need a bath. Your kids need to see you challenging this so that THEY know it's wrong. By you and dh hush hushing around it, and trying to step in you are sending the wrong message to your kids. I don't understand why you haven't made a bigger deal of any of the issues you have described.

Oh dear. I really think that I would be inclined to just stay away. Make excuses when asked to visit, cut the ties without formally declaring this and risking the family break-up that is concerning you.

You have taken so many sensible steps and have your OH 100% behind you. These are huge pluses.

I can see why you do not want to face this head-on with them and clearly declare that you will not be seeing them; that the family repercussions seem too hard to contemplate. But you do need to consider that he might be a risk to other children. You may decide to keep your child away, but he might come into contact with other children and indulge in unacceptable behaviour with them.

Just do not go there - at all. Your son will himself feel anxious; and the only way you can protect him is to simply keep him away. Going to visit and having to police your FIL and keep the two apart is very stressful for everyone and is only a half solution.

I am horrified with the under-the-blanket incident - it makes my flesh creep. You simply have to keep this man away from your child. And you can do this by not going there - at all.

I know this is uncomfortable and far from ideal - but what he is doing to your son is way way worse.

How horrible for you. I am sure you are doing all you can in Themis situation to protect your children.

@GrandmasCat

I also am not prematurely cutting off the in laws and children's relationship based on a hunch and scant evidence of child abuse.

Waiting for solid evidence means waiting for your children to tell you they have been fondled or raped by GD. You have had your views validated by the NSPCC, what else are you waiting to happen before you stop calling it a “hunch”?

You are the mother, your first priority is to protect your children not the feelings of the inlaws. If you are so worried about severing links stop joining your husband on trips to visit his parents, they can see the kids when you bump with them in other family occasions.

And FGS, stop staying there over night. If you don’t have the money to pay a hotel, let the husband go and stay home with the children.

This.

OP, being a pariah in the family is nothing compared to dealing with the aftermath of a paedophile.

These are your children. Protect them at all costs.

Hardly disgusting. The OP is in a hideously difficult position. She also has to keep her husband aboard or he could take the children to visit grandparents without her agreement.

“I just wanted to chip in and say it's great that the OP is encouraging her kids to talk. But I wouldn't rely on that too much. I don't know what it is about abuse but it's so hard to talk about as a kid, even if it's happening and you need help. It's like some crazy voodoo shit has cast a spell on your lips.”

It’s called trauma - the freeze response. May also come with blanking out images / experiences in your mind - but the body keeps the score of sub conscious repressed or confused emotions. Even as adults we may have been left confused by an incident and only weeks / months / years later reflected that we were abused.

Well done for evoking Sarah’s Law - however it takes 45 days (assume working) to come through - what will you decide to do in the interim given Christmas? Covid would be an easy avoidance excuse if you are not yet ready to decide which way to go on this.

As someone who was abused as a child (not by a family member, but by a family friend) it's sadly likely that abuse has already happened in the bath and blanket scenarios. It can happen almost in plain sight, very briefly, the sort of thing that can be brushed off and explained away.

Hi OP
I have only read half the replies so apologies if this has been covered already.
I work with sex offenders. They know how to groom not just the victims but everyone around them. They can present a very good front when it comes to being useless with technology. I've know several who claimed they couldn't do anything on computers (and 'proved' it) but actually had several very high spec laptops hidden away. Same with phones. Had Nokia type bricks which they claimed they could just about make a call on but actually had iPhones they used in secret.

Very rarely does a sex offender start off with direct contact with victims. They start with third party stuff and work up.

Just be aware of the grooming he will have put you and your DH under as well. It sounds like you are already but just wanted to add this just in case.

I wish more parents were like you.

Most people just can't believe a family member could abuse their DC's so they are left vulnerable when there are warning signs.

@felulageller

I wish more parents were like you.

Most people just can't believe a family member could abuse their DC's so they are left vulnerable when there are warning signs.

The kids are still vulnerable while she is allowing contact to continue. Listening is not enough.

elulageller

I wish more parents were like you.

Most people just can't believe a family member could abuse their DC's so they are left vulnerable when there are warning signs.

Wtf! I can't believe the Op isn't just saying a big fat no to seeing them again. If someone offered to 'bath' my kids in the middle of the day, I'd be asking some questions at the very least. Ffs. Poor boys.

I can't see why you didn't put a stop to visits the first time this happened.