How do people keep voting in the tories?

[chaosmaker]

I'd love it if tory voters could say why they vote the way they do given that there's ample evidence for how utterly incompetent they are (11 years). Especially in the last election. With that not-fit-for-purpose idiot in charge - edited by MNHQ
I also keep writing to my MP saying that if they are going to pretend we have democracy then they need to scrap FPTP.

AIBU that we should allow people with no sense to vote or
AINBU am I right in that people should have to factor history and rare sense into their decision making?

How? They went to the polling station and put a “x” for Tory.
Do you mean WHY did they vote Tory?

Did anyone claim the Ebbw Vale is a metropolis? Or that it got significant EU funding that it will struggle to replace from Westminster?

You always insist on taking sarcasm so literally...

The point is that if a new cable car (which doesn't work) is all that the people of Ebbw Vale could see that they got from EU membership, you can't blame them for deciding that the grass must be greener on the other side. Even projects with a more obvious use such as a dual carriageway or Merthyr Tydfil's car park aren't of direct benefit to those who can't afford a car.

In any case, it's not really "EU funding" when the UK was a net contributor. That money could have gone direct.

@malificent7

I'm voting Green from now on. I know they don't know what a woman is but they know what climate change is at least.

They may know what climate change is but they fall short on actually supporting the actions which will solve it.

An XR spokeswoman left the latter organisation in order to campaign for nuclear power, on the basis that only nuclear can decarbonise the grid. She was absolutely right. If we are going to cut the carbon emissions of the energy sector (the demands upon which are growing as we move to electric cars, electric trains, and electric heating), we need carbon-free generating capacity on a scale which only nuclear can provide. The French have led the way here. But the Greens won't hear of it. www.greensfornuclear.energy/

The Greens were previously the Ecology party which focused more on harms to the ecosystem than on climate change. As a result, it opposes any form of development, even when that development will result in a net gain to the planet. HS2 for example could do to the London-Manchester/Scotland aviation sector what HS1/LGV Nord did to the London-Paris/Brussels route. But the Greens won't back it. hs2.green/

The way that Brighton has fallen apart under their leadership with rubbish-strewn streets does not give me the confidence that they can do the right thing on a national level.

Agree with you there @DdraigGoch - the main funding my hometown received from the EU was towards improving local social housing, including renovation work. All sounds lovely, but the locals knew the houses on that estate are all crack dens, rented by multiple generations of the local druglords who have no intention of getting a lawful job and supporting the community. Two years after the EU funded renovations, the houses were in such a poor state again from tenant neglect and drug feuds that they were knocked down completely and the tenants moved elsewhere.

All the law-abiding folk who grew up there saw was wasted cash and undeserving people getting something for nothing, with an EU flag on it.

@DdraigGoch, I seem to be nodding along to your posts.

Small stare, low taxes...
I don't know how the Tories (and their supporters) can stand up and say this with straight face.

Even Thatcher increased taxes and spending.

What they mean by "small state" is that spending will shift from public sector to their private sector pals.

Tory governments actually borrow more and repay less.

Mrs Thatcher started a steady process of shifting the tax burden from rich people to poorer ones.

But the small state low taxes mantra is a silly myth, not in anyway reflected by the facts.

I'm firmly of the view that the state is intrinsically incompetent and wasteful, therefore I would prefer to make my own decisions on where to spend my own money.

Don't vote Tory then - they increase taxes.

My prediction - which is probably wrong : the Tories will wait til May cos of local elections which nobody wants to preside over . Then Truss will take over , splash the cash and go to the country in 23. She will win a la Major.

@JohnHuffam1812

Kier Starmer is an excellent leader, very professional and self made. He rips Boris apart every pmqs.

He has appointed a strong shadow cabinet.

Policies aren't laid out yet because it's not an election, Miliband set them out early and found popular ones adopted by the Tories.

Why can't you see that I just think you are repeating the same platitudes about every Labour leader. You're a Tory voter and even thought he tories are grossly incompetent, corrupt and have fucked up even then things they promised at the last election you still repeat the mantra that Labourb are unelectable.

It's a good tactic because maybe it's excused you from the responsibility of your vote, no maybe it convinces others.

But it stops working after a while

Agree

Words don't seem to equate to winning with Labour though, do they.
So if in a decade they still don't have a win, then they have to be doing something wrong.

@EatSleepRantRepeat

Agree with you there *@DdraigGoch* - the main funding my hometown received from the EU was towards improving local social housing, including renovation work. All sounds lovely, but the locals knew the houses on that estate are all crack dens, rented by multiple generations of the local druglords who have no intention of getting a lawful job and supporting the community. Two years after the EU funded renovations, the houses were in such a poor state again from tenant neglect and drug feuds that they were knocked down completely and the tenants moved elsewhere.

All the law-abiding folk who grew up there saw was wasted cash and undeserving people getting something for nothing, with an EU flag on it.

No surprise.

I remember reading some posts on here a while back by a poster who had worked in finance in the public sector. She said it really changed her mind watching how much public money the politicians squandered.

People flying over on private jets to meetings which could've been held online, and bringing an entourage of 20 staff who were all put up in five star hotels and given spending money, front row seats at the opera, etc, all paid for by the tax payer.

@EightWheelGirl

Public sector worker here married to another public sector worker - that poster was having you on. No way the public sector would fund private jets, 5 star hotels for entourage of 20 etc. Sounds beyond even the most extreme Daily Mail made-up nonsense.

The reality is that external visitors get luxuries like maybe some salad as well as the sandwiches for lunch and if they're very special, get their parking paid in Central London.

Gosh, some MNetters are very gullible - sounds like a joke thread and you fell for it!

Personally, I couldn't have voted for Labour under Corbyn because of the massive antisemitism he encouraged and that was engulfing the party. It's improved under Starmer but still a problem and that would affect my vote as an antisemitic party in power would directly impact my safety.

I didn't vote Tory at the last election and am someone who never ever has or thought I could. But Labour's position on women's rights (self-ID) has me really worried at the moment and none of the other left-of-centre parties are any better. So at the next election, who knows?

In normal times, I would vote on economic grounds eg for Labour or maybe the Greens or Lib Dems. But antisemitism and attacks on women's rights are key issues for me as they directly impinge on my life and my safety as a Jewish woman.

Not sure if I could personally bring myself to vote Tory? But I could certainly understand and not berate anyone who did given the crappiness of current left-wing parties on women's rights and dealing with antisemitism.

Or to put it another way, I haven't left the left, but the left has left me. With left-wing parties embracing racism and misogyny, what are they for??

[quote housenovice]@EightWheelGirl

Public sector worker here married to another public sector worker - that poster was having you on. No way the public sector would fund private jets, 5 star hotels for entourage of 20 etc. Sounds beyond even the most extreme Daily Mail made-up nonsense.

The reality is that external visitors get luxuries like maybe some salad as well as the sandwiches for lunch and if they're very special, get their parking paid in Central London.

Gosh, some MNetters are very gullible - sounds like a joke thread and you fell for it! [/quote]
They didn't sound like they were joking. It was in regard to meetings between EU member states and the ridiculous spending therein. If you don't think that some politicians take the piss with expenses then you might be in for a surprise.

No way the public sector would fund private jets.

What about the second private jet the government purchased only about a year ago? Shortly after they received loads of stick for spending a million on a union jack paint job for the first jet.

I want to get rid of the current government. But I don't want to pay any more tax. Have worked hard for what we have and resent paying half to the tax man.

So anyway - what are my options?

@EightWheelGirl

No way the public sector would fund private jets.

What about the second private jet the government purchased only about a year ago? Shortly after they received loads of stick for spending a million on a union jack paint job for the first jet.

Ah, changed your story now I've pointed out it was lies. The government buying a single second jet (even if true - do you have a source for this, as I've never heard of it) is NOT the same thing as paying for private jet fares and 5 star hotel costs for 20 random external delegates. As a supposedly typical expense paid for by the Civil Service.

Plus why are you discussing EU expenses - did Brexit pass you by?? Even if your stories of EU excess is true (which I doubt, given the other blatant lies you posted), it would have no relevance as to what we currently spend in the UK or will be spending.

If you knew anyone who worked in the public sector, you'd know it won't pay for anything expensive. Hence why the story about Liz Truss's meal for 10 people for £75 a head hit the headlines - that is so far above what is normally allowed. Even when wining and dining the US trade representatives! Even though by London standards that is not an especially high figure for a meal with wine - maybe double a typical cost? Given the importance of the guests, it felt like a reasonable expense to me - but it got commented on because normally the Civil Service is so mean. Oh, and because someone at the Mail was clearly trying to do hatchet job on Liz Truss in favour of one of the men vying to be Tory leader.

Ah, changed your story now I've pointed out it was lies. The government buying a single second jet (even if true - do you have a source for this, as I've never heard of it) is NOT the same thing as paying for private jet fares and 5 star hotel costs for 20 random external delegates. As a supposedly typical expense paid for by the Civil Service. hmm

Plus why are you discussing EU expenses - did Brexit pass you by?? hmm Even if your stories of EU excess is true (which I doubt, given the other blatant lies you posted), it would have no relevance as to what we currently spend in the UK or will be spending.

If you knew anyone who worked in the public sector, you'd know it won't pay for anything expensive. Hence why the story about Liz Truss's meal for 10 people for £75 a head hit the headlines - that is so far above what is normally allowed. Even when wining and dining the US trade representatives! Even though by London standards that is not an especially high figure for a meal with wine - maybe double a typical cost? Given the importance of the guests, it felt like a reasonable expense to me - but it got commented on because normally the Civil Service is so mean. Oh, and because someone at the Mail was clearly trying to do hatchet job on Liz Truss in favour of one of the men vying to be Tory leader. hmm

Blatant lies? 😂 Morelike blatantly touched a nerve.

I haven't changed my story. What are you on about? They're separate events.

Here's a link to the jet. I suppose your logic makes sense. Government certainly wouldn't shell out for jet fares. I mean seeing as they're so much pricier than actually buying the whole jet, right?

Are you sure you really work for the civil service and aren't telling porkies? Or perhaps you just attend to the barrier in the car park.

Boris Johnson spends £900,000 of taxpayers' money on 'Brexit' plane...

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-spends-900-000-of-taxpayers-money-on-plane-brexit-paint-job-xhtctfpwf

Oops, wrong link. That wasn't the link about the new jet. That was just them spending £900k repainting the old one.

@chopc

I want to get rid of the current government. But I don't want to pay any more tax. Have worked hard for what we have and resent paying half to the tax man.

So anyway - what are my options?

Emigrate?

Tories - claim to be the party of low tax and small state - consistently increase taxes.

Labour - in recent history have to try to be the Tories in a red suit to stand any chance of getting elected - unlikely to cut tax, rises possible.

These are the only two parties who could form a government due to our electoral system.

I am puzzled about "resent paying half to the tax man" - if you employed and paying income tax and NI you aren't paying half to the taxman.

Of course if you count VAT and so on, you may well be.

@Bollindger

Words don't seem to equate to winning with Labour though, do they. So if in a decade they still don't have a win, then they have to be doing something wrong.

It's obviously more complicated than that isn't it? The SNP has basically taken Labour's vote in Scotland - arguably (and ironically) because Scotland is sick of having Tory Englsih governments they don't vote for.

Then there are a range of other issues including the boundary changes and our ridiculous electoral system.

It was a simple as trotting out a few crappy soundbites they'd have won by now.

So if in a decade they still don't have a win, then they have to be doing something wrong.

I don't agree that the current situation is down to Labour's failings. As I keep saying the right wing press have a lot to answer for. And British people seem to be naturally conservative. But sometimes change is necessary. And Boris's Tories aren't really Conservative anyway. They have brought about huge changes in a short space of time but none for the better. How about voting for a chance of a more equal society that works for all and not just the privileged? It's sad that many people consider that such an utopian vision. It works in the Nordic countries although admittedly they have smaller and more homogenous populations. But some have overcome huge obstacles to become what they are today.

@EightWheelGirl

So where's the right link then?

You claim the Tories have bought a second private jet and seem to be claiming this is used to fly in visiting foreign dignitaries?? No evidence of this at all.

As I said, in the Civil Service there is a huge squeeze on expenses - cheap hotels, no paid Christmas parties (well, I can't comment on what goes on at No 10, but certainly not for ordinary staff) and certainly no funding of 5 star hotels
and private jet fares! I pointed out you were lying and you're still lying.

Why? Why are you lying?

So where's the right link then?

You claim the Tories have bought a second private jet and seem to be claiming this is used to fly in visiting foreign dignitaries?? No evidence of this at all.

What I said is literally written in front of you so I'm not sure how you concluded the above.

I didnt say they were flying around foreign dignitaries. Why on earth would they do that?

I said:

A) a previous poster who claimed to work in public sector finance said that she was shocked by the amount of wasted money.

B) the government have bought a second jet (in response to you saying they don't waste money).

Oh, and here's the jet.

Government acquires second, brand new ‘Brexit jet’ for Boris Johnson painted red, white and blue

www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/government-plane-union-flag-paint-livery-b1820418.html%3famp

THEY KEEP LOSING.
Your complaining about a thing you can see IN VOTES. The Election is about getting people to want your policys to be carried out., so they place their X in the right box.
Do you see?
Labour are not reaching people , each time they fail, so that is their policys, failing each time. As I said after a decade they still can't refine this enough to gain support of the country.
So whom do we blaim.. according to Mumsnet it's the people for not being clever enough do the right thing.