Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

How do people keep voting in the tories?

946 replies

chaosmaker · 14/12/2021 11:19

I'd love it if tory voters could say why they vote the way they do given that there's ample evidence for how utterly incompetent they are (11 years). Especially in the last election. With that not-fit-for-purpose idiot in charge - edited by MNHQ
I also keep writing to my MP saying that if they are going to pretend we have democracy then they need to scrap FPTP.

AIBU that we should allow people with no sense to vote or
AINBU am I right in that people should have to factor history and rare sense into their decision making?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Nayday · 15/12/2021 09:11

@Beckert I'm not interested in snippy arguing with an individual but stating the case for political reform based on the failure of numerous systems as evidenced through out this thread.

The people on this thread have more in common with each other than we do with politicians.

It would be interesting to see different political systems shared here rather than "I'm right/you're wrong" arguing - which is fun if you like debate (I do, I admit) but doesn't impart learning.

onlychildhamster · 15/12/2021 09:14

@LobsterNapkin we don't have the longest lifespan. The likes of Singapore, Spain, Switzerland, Italy, Canada, Israel, Norway all have longer lifespans. With the exception of israel, all of the above have aging populations. But their health systems are not tethering on the brink of collapse. Most of them have an insurance system (I would count Singapore in that as even if they have a compulsory health savings account, they also have compulsory health insurance). Its just that the health insurance is universal and so everyone has some sort of coverage. Health insurance system generally ensures more funding; NI is a kind of a blunt instrument, most of it goes on pensions and its very hard to increase it without huge protest on the population.

SexyNeckbeard · 15/12/2021 09:19

I'm not sure anyone thinks the NHS is performing amazingly - it needs massive reform not more money chucking at it, but any politician dares even look at the NHS to suggest changes hysterical people start shrieking about how it's all going to be sold.

Beckert · 15/12/2021 09:26

[quote Nayday]@Beckert I'm not interested in snippy arguing with an individual but stating the case for political reform based on the failure of numerous systems as evidenced through out this thread.

The people on this thread have more in common with each other than we do with politicians.

It would be interesting to see different political systems shared here rather than "I'm right/you're wrong" arguing - which is fun if you like debate (I do, I admit) but doesn't impart learning.[/quote]
I just wondered who you had in mind to deliver this.
But if you don't want to extend the conversation as far as who, then that's fine. Just a desire for a party that doesn't actually exist then. But you wish it did.

No worries. 😁

Nayday · 15/12/2021 09:32

@Beckert that's not what I said at all. But yes like you -

No worries.

Effibreast · 15/12/2021 09:36

@Beckert nobody is calling tory voters thick. They are finding it somewhat mind boggling that after the corruption, deceit, ineptitude that this government has displayed, tory supporters are still arguing that they are the superior option. Look at the state of public services, NHS struggling, likewise schools, police and penal system, still no levelling up but Labour are worse ? Some of the progressive policies that labour introduced are still around, what is the tory government's legacy apart from Brexshit Grin

HikingforScenery · 15/12/2021 09:49

Thank you for this thread, OP.
I’ve often wondered the same as you and I’ve found this thread eye-opening. Things will be the same for much longer.
Maybe we’ll become even more desensitised to the corruption, lies, racism, contempt for the general public, etc.

C8H10N4O2 · 15/12/2021 10:13

And no-one predicted that people would end up in A&E because they'd gone on the lash and had a fight.

That is exactly what many groups (including doctors' lobby groups) predicted would happen in health care was free at the point of access.

Large parts of the medical establishment was utterly opposed to the principle of the NHS and their lobbying resulted in it being partly bastardised from the outset. Large chunks of services have always been t has always been delivered by private businesses (GP practices) and services from the outset were set up to protect the interests of private practitioners.

Packingsoapandwater · 15/12/2021 11:13

"We need to stop voting for the mythical, one day wealthy carrot party and vote for policies are going to address the problems our society faces today. I'd actually like to see cross party policy making - the current party system is broken too. But that is radical reform."

Yes.

Just yes. Grin

The party system doesn't work. It is just too antagonistic and silly. Fundamentally, when you get down to brass tacks, there aren't that many ideological differences you can take towards solving a problem, which will inevitably involve money. Blair discovered this when he took power in '97; that's why so many manifesto pledges were funded through PFI.

Take adult social care, for example. In my area, it is currently costing 70p in the council tax pound, so a household in a Band C property (which is a below a Band D "average" house) is paying over £1000 a year for council adult social care. This is actually more than you will pay in income tax a year if you are on full time NMW. It's roughly the equivalent to a combined utilities bill (gas, water, electric) for a lot of average households.

It is severely debateable whether households in properties under Band D in many regions can take any more increases in council tax.

So how do we fund adult social care? The notion is that central government should put more into the pot. But central government is currently estimated to run a £171.8bn annual deficit for FY 2022 (the difference between tax receipts and public expenditure) on top of a £2.5tn national debt.

So then you say ... raise taxes on the rich. And I would agree: let's bring in viable property taxes for multimillion pound properties. It is ridiculous that a property that would cost $14k a year in taxes in Manhattan costs under £5k in council tax pa in Central London.

But aside from that, we don't actually have a huge number of uber-rich people in Britain that we can tax. 90% of Brits earn under £50k pa. You are in the 0.1% if you earn over £100k pa (IFS), which works out at around 68,000-ish people -- that's less than a parliamentary constituency.

So you say, well, lets go for the billionaires. Lets take the top five: Mittal, Abramovich, the Duke of Westminster, the Bertarellis and the Reubens. In total, that's £48.082bn if you seize their wealth French Revolution style.

That sum would pay for half the education spend for one year, which is currently budgeted to be £99.8bn for FY2022.

It would, in fact, just pay for the annual interest payment of £43.5bn on our national debt, with £4.6bn left over to roughly double the police budget, which is miniscule at £5.2bn.

These are the sums we are talking about. When it comes to the NHS, education, pensions and welfare, they are vast.

So back to adult social care, what's the solution? Well, you are basically looking at a solution that lowers medium to long term costs, but retains service. You can't just keep flinging money at it, because the money just isn't there. So you have to look at what costs the money in adult social care, and what you find is that it is nursing homes and the cost of carers going into elderly homes all over a borough three or four times a day.

So the solution starts to become clear. What you need is housing with care: i.e. low to medium assistance elderly housing communities with wardens, onsite nurses and a bistro where people can buy or rent a one or two bed flat. Then you run your nursing homes for people that really need that kind of intense care. And lo! Councils, such as York, that have done this do not have an adult social care crisis!

But what I am saying here is that this solution is a mix of public and private. It needs councils to get involved in planning these solutions, maybe even building them if they have the viable funds. In some cases, private companies might be the best bet, but any plans still need to get through councils.

And in this, there is no left or right, particularly. There is only the possibly affordable solution and the non-affordable solutions. Grin

LobsterNapkin · 15/12/2021 11:45

[quote onlychildhamster]@LobsterNapkin we don't have the longest lifespan. The likes of Singapore, Spain, Switzerland, Italy, Canada, Israel, Norway all have longer lifespans. With the exception of israel, all of the above have aging populations. But their health systems are not tethering on the brink of collapse. Most of them have an insurance system (I would count Singapore in that as even if they have a compulsory health savings account, they also have compulsory health insurance). Its just that the health insurance is universal and so everyone has some sort of coverage. Health insurance system generally ensures more funding; NI is a kind of a blunt instrument, most of it goes on pensions and its very hard to increase it without huge protest on the population.[/quote]
I think you might know less about these places than you think, I live in Canada and the health system here has precisely the same problem.

LobsterNapkin · 15/12/2021 11:54

[quote Effibreast]@Beckert nobody is calling tory voters thick. They are finding it somewhat mind boggling that after the corruption, deceit, ineptitude that this government has displayed, tory supporters are still arguing that they are the superior option. Look at the state of public services, NHS struggling, likewise schools, police and penal system, still no levelling up but Labour are worse ? Some of the progressive policies that labour introduced are still around, what is the tory government's legacy apart from Brexshit Grin[/quote]
I'm always surprised when reasons like this come up. I suspect that the fact is, people take this element largely for granted as inevitable whatever party is in power. They think that they would see lies, manipulation, and corruption from a Labour government as well. And honestly, given the kind of spin we see from the LP on some issues, it's difficult to imagine that it wouldn't happen.

So it really doesn't prompt them to change much in one direction or the other.

Similarly with claims of favouring the rich. The LP might be slightly softer in this area, but ultimately they are still economically liberal or neoliberal, intent on supporting global corporatism. They still support the structures of international trade deals and balk at things like protection of industry or labour. It's not even like the individuals in the LP are a particularly working class bunch, to a large extent they are middle class urbanites with pensions and university education.

So again - not that much more compelling, really.

onlychildhamster · 15/12/2021 11:56

@LobsterNapkin well i have lived in Singapore and Germany , and their healthcare systems are definitely not on the same scale as the UK in terms of waiting times. Do canadians have to wait hours for an ambulance and then die waiting for them? Do they have to wait months for a referral, and then have to go privately?

My DH had an abscess during the pandemic which needed to be removed. He went to the NHS and they said, sorry we can't do this because of the pandemic. He went and did it privately on his company insurance plan, paid £200 for the copay for the year. my father had a similar problem in Singapore, his operation was on the same day and as he is a citizen with health insurance, it cost him nothing out of pocket. Doubtless if I was an unemployed person with a chronic expensive condition, the UK might be a better place than singapore as you don't need to worry about costs and hopefully you get seen eventually, but there is equally a chance you would die waiting...

Thatldo · 15/12/2021 12:17

Britain is politically a relative uneducated country.We could see this with Brexit.Brexit was not decided on both sides with facts,rather with how someone feels.Britain is also and has ever been a conservative country: Tradition,War,Empire,Queen are for most people very important.This is one reason the Tories will probably more likely to win an election.In addition to this, for most people,as long as the house prices go up, all is fine.Humans is quite a selfish species on this planet and the Tories are more likely to condone selfish behaviour than challenge it.Boris Johnson is a prime example of an extremely selfish person,combined with zero wisdom.It can hardly be worse for the challenges to come.

Otherpeoplesteens · 15/12/2021 13:05

In order to win, it has been the case throughout the last fifty years that Labour need Tory voters to vote for them. To quote Rafael Behr, this "does not come easily to a party that struggles to imagine why anyone in their right mind would be a Tory."

If Labour activists call people like me "Tory scum" to my face, when I've actually never voted Conservative in my life, then it ain't gonna happen.

On top of that, I live in a Labour stronghold. They hold 52 out of the 60 seats in my council, which is the lowest number in the nearly 30 years I've lived here. Local services are absolutely terrible, officials don't seem to be accountable to anyone. They have not got appreciably worse during the austerity years of local authority budget cuts, because they were equally terrible during the Blair administration when Labour had 59 of the 60 council seats. They just don't care.

I don't vote Tories in, but I do vote to keep Labour out.

Nidan2Sandan · 15/12/2021 13:10

Because even the Blonde Buffoon is a better choice than what Labour is offering

frazzledali · 15/12/2021 13:13

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Effibreast · 15/12/2021 13:52

@Nidan2Sandan why ?

Lykia · 15/12/2021 14:18

Because if I vote for Starmer as PM and God forbid something happens to him or he steps down then we have Angela Rayner as PM. I shudder at the thought.

Sorry OP not the answer you requested.

C8H10N4O2 · 15/12/2021 14:24

nobody is calling tory voters thick. They are finding it somewhat mind boggling that after the corruption, deceit, ineptitude that this government has displayed, tory supporters are still arguing that they are the superior option

That sounds like a longer way of saying people are thick because they don't share your views.

mnp321 · 15/12/2021 14:29

Despite Johnson's chaotic and, at times, inept government, I'd still rather that than a Labour government. I have even less faith in them to run the country well. And I think the party will ultimately replace Boris unless he sorts himself out.

Pazuzu · 15/12/2021 14:39

Why would I vote Labour?

They can't even run an opposition.

Nothing they have done locally has ever convinced me that they will ever do any more than tax me harder to tip money down the drain on vanity projects or give it away to prop up their voter base.

And apparently I'm thick and racist for voting Brexit. Maybe if my area hadn't spent my lifetime sinking into the abyss under the glory of the EU I'd have thought differently.

Also, if you hate selective education or tax avoidance so much, try and tell your MPS not to take full advantage of it.

As for the NHS, it's the lefts refusal to allow reform that's causing the damage. When the existing money is used properly and there is a real shortfall then come back and ask for more.

Classica · 15/12/2021 14:44

As for the NHS, it's the lefts refusal to allow reform that's causing the damage. When the existing money is used properly and there is a real shortfall then come back and ask for more.

The Tories have been in power for the past 11 years but the state of the NHS is Labour's fault...

LifeIsWhat · 15/12/2021 15:01

It is important to have a capable opposition party as unbalance and unchecked power is dangerous, and labour, sadly failed to be that, therefore, Tory have no "motivation" or reason to govern in the interest of the people.
It is a competition of "who is less worse" rather than "Who can be better". This is bad news for everyone - the ordinary people, regardless which party you support.

onlychildhamster · 15/12/2021 15:16

@Pazuzu your area is going to be worse off after brexit. Unless you are from NI. look at this graphic. We have a bigger decrease in GDP than greece. All countries suffered due to covid but not all countries have a stunning 10% fall in GDP. That honour belongs to the UK. London had a more manageable 2% fall. But if you look at the other parts of the UK, it shows the combined effect of the pandemic + brexit. This is because London is richer and more diversified in terms of foreign investment; the poorest parts of the UK rely disproportionately on regional investment and EU funding.

How do people keep voting in the tories?
Pazuzu · 15/12/2021 15:29

[quote onlychildhamster]@Pazuzu your area is going to be worse off after brexit. Unless you are from NI. look at this graphic. We have a bigger decrease in GDP than greece. All countries suffered due to covid but not all countries have a stunning 10% fall in GDP. That honour belongs to the UK. London had a more manageable 2% fall. But if you look at the other parts of the UK, it shows the combined effect of the pandemic + brexit. This is because London is richer and more diversified in terms of foreign investment; the poorest parts of the UK rely disproportionately on regional investment and EU funding.[/quote]
Maybe if any of remain had pointed such things out rather than call names we wouldn't be here.

As for EU funding, I've just had a quick look online. Still struggling to find anything that anyone has actually heard of.

I can still see the decline that happened in my area over many years whilst in the EU. That's very very visible.

Swipe left for the next trending thread