How do people keep voting in the tories?

[chaosmaker]

I'd love it if tory voters could say why they vote the way they do given that there's ample evidence for how utterly incompetent they are (11 years). Especially in the last election. With that not-fit-for-purpose idiot in charge - edited by MNHQ
I also keep writing to my MP saying that if they are going to pretend we have democracy then they need to scrap FPTP.

AIBU that we should allow people with no sense to vote or
AINBU am I right in that people should have to factor history and rare sense into their decision making?

They ultimately run the country in a better way and ensure people are basically cared for without lots of people taking the piss.

They ultimately run the country in a better way and ensure people are basically cared for without lots of people taking the piss.

A better way than what? Cameron gambled the country on his political career and lost. May couldn't manage them. Johnson is a corrupt, workshy liar who only cares about himself.

He and his mates have repeatedly taken the piss. They continue to do so at our expense.

[quote onlychildhamster]@Packingsoapandwater thank you for your link about the NHS. it is very interesting that it was underfunded even in 1957. i cannot imagine the uk without the nhs, but yet at the same time, I can't imagine how this can continue...[/quote]
The thing about the NHS is that it was believed, originally, that it would eventually make itself redundant. The idea was that free to access healthcare, plus the postwar welfare state, would solve the ills of poverty and penury so everyone would be in a position to pursue a good life and chronic health conditions would slowly become eradicated as people would seek treatment earlier, live in better conditions, eat better food, receive better lifestyle advice etc.

To some extent, the founding of the NHS was the "big push" towards improving the health of the nation once and for all.

And it worked, to some extent. Pregnancy and folic acid, for example, was a big win.

The problem was that no one predicted the stratospheric advances in medical and surgical therapies over the last forty years. And no one remotely considered that different comorbidities such as obesity, would replace things like work-related lung diseases. And no one predicted the rise in population. We were all being told in the '90s that demographic decline was the major issue because people weren't having enough children.

And no-one predicted that people would end up in A&E because they'd gone on the lash and had a fight.

It's interesting in these covid times because we used to have a postwar national network of sanitariums precisely for infectious diseases: measles, in particular. All the protocols were there. Patients were kept out of hospitals. But of course, with advances in vaccinations, those sanitariums were mothballed and eventually sold.

What we really need is a bunch of politicians to get down to brass tacks and address the serious infrastructural issues we face in Britain. But talking about sewers and trains and refuse and dentists and roads and energy security isn't "sexy", unfortunately.

Bo Jo has taken the piss but we haven't had a chance to vote him out yet. I think it will swing the other way, he's such a tool. Anyone but the buffoon.

@underneaththeash

They ultimately run the country in a better way and ensure people are basically cared for without lots of people taking the piss.

Except...they don't?

The Tories are the ones taking the piss but the faithful are determined not to see it.

@underneaththeash

They ultimately run the country in a better way and ensure people are basically cared for without lots of people taking the piss.

Yes the kids suffering abusive carers, the nhs patients denied cancer and other life saving treatments (long before CV, UK had the worst cancer survival rates among comparable EU nations) The women seeking safe refuge (and being refused as cuts closed them), kids thrown into poverty, state schools denied funding....

All cared for soooooo much better under the Tories.

As for taking the piss.... you must mean the billions handed out, fraudulently, under the business support scheme? which will never be repaid.

Because even though Bozo looks like he rolled from under a hedge clutching a bottle of gin, the alternative is absolutely bloody terrifying.

Tory voters need to read Marmot's "Build Back Fairer" report IMO

@coffeerevelsrock that's literally a summary of the ten pledges on his website.

@Packingsoapandwater people are told by the tabloids that immigrants are to blame for the NHS being underfunded when the majority of immigrants are non EU and have to pay for the NHS in the form of a surcharge. They are also disproportionately younger and less likely to use expensive hospital services.

The thing with population increase- it's not just about how many babies are being born, we are also living longer than ever before with years of chronic conditions. All of which cost £££. This was not anticipated when the NHS was founded that the average person would expect to live into their 80s.

@Packingsoapandwater other countries do have similar problems with aging population and tightening government budgets. However, I have lived in 3 different countries and I would say UK is #1 in terms of access to the poor but crap for pretty much everything else. We should be studying other healthcare systems so that we can improve on other aspects. I would say Germany is a good healthcare system to follow.

[quote onlychildhamster]@swissmodel which schools are being failed for not 'promoting' LGBT?

my SIL's school is still outstanding. my DH's school has become 'inadequate' despite stellar grades, but honestly those problems have nothing to do with LGBT but to do with problems that have been festering since my DH was at school (he is 31 years old).[/quote]
Only every 'frum' school in the past 4-5 years. Check out the JC - Simon Rocker thrives on reporting these Ofsted failures.

Eli Spitzer had a long chat with Ofsted chief Spielman on this very subject.

[quote DdraigGoch]@coffeerevelsrock that's literally a summary of the ten pledges on his website.[/quote]
I'd never looked at the Starmer website, only the Labour one. Having had a look, I still don't think you're being accurate.

He mentions taxing the top 5% of earners more - I can't see a figure of £75 000 though I vaguely remember that sum being mentioned in the last election - when Starmer wasn't leader. Top 5% doesn't necessarily mean 80k and above and his website also mentions corporation tax and cracking down on tax avoidance, and why anyone objects to that is beyond me. Not sure everyone would agree with you that UC is great and it is riven with problems even if it is a good principle, which I'm not sure it is anyway.

Can't see any further details about the green pledge on his site but the Labour one has masses of detail and saying it's an impossible wish list when the Tories' pledges have repeatedly been found to be great on promises and targets and well short on actually delivering on them is a bit rich.

It says no more illegal wars and, again, the Labour site has masses of detail that make it clear Labour policy would be for Britain to be involved on the global stage. It's highly critical, for example, of Tory cuts to the armed forces that would make British contribution to NATO interventions doubtful, despite what Tories may say.

To say the railways are under state control now and are falling apart is massively disingenuous and properly returning them to public ownership is a popular idea. Privatisation was a massive Tory failure and the private companies that have cocked it up are a disgrace. Energy companies under public ownership - what's so stupid about that in the current situation - all those tiny little companies wasn't such a great plan it seems.

The trade Union Act is a disgrace and anyone who thinks the unions are too powerful now - well, they're not. I agree with you about the HoL BUT Johnson has massively abused that and stuffed as many Brexity populists in as he could, as did Cameron and May before him. It's very far from perfect that's for sure. As for giving no detail about barriers to opportunity, he mentions equal pay, SureStart, BAME rep and the Labour website has masses more detail.

[quote onlychildhamster]@Packingsoapandwater other countries do have similar problems with aging population and tightening government budgets. However, I have lived in 3 different countries and I would say UK is #1 in terms of access to the poor but crap for pretty much everything else. We should be studying other healthcare systems so that we can improve on other aspects. I would say Germany is a good healthcare system to follow.[/quote]
The thing no one wants to talk about is that developed countries could spend an infinite amount of money on health care. That, and we've extended people's lives, but the quality of life in that extra 10 years is poor and it's incredibly resource hungry.

We are also scared as a society to talk frankly about death, we prefer to pretend it's not going to happen and then, when it's inevitable, make it as sterile and quick as possible so it's not too disturbing, like neat bloodless pork chops wrapped in plastic on a styrofoam plate.

It's a mass of contradictions and makes developing a rational approach to health care impossible. And covid has made it a lot worse.

@fournonblondes

And yes there is a daily agenda here in MN and is very clear is to topple BJ. You know they are Labour because of the amount of swearing.

Ha ha as opposed to a Tory who doesn’t know the difference between worse and worst? I’ll take the swearing thanks. As if there’s no swearing from Tories anyway - what a laugh.

[quote onlychildhamster]@Packingsoapandwater other countries do have similar problems with aging population and tightening government budgets. However, I have lived in 3 different countries and I would say UK is #1 in terms of access to the poor but crap for pretty much everything else. We should be studying other healthcare systems so that we can improve on other aspects. I would say Germany is a good healthcare system to follow.[/quote]
Exactly, hamster. I would say we should be looking at European models. I'd also be interested in proper discovery of the Japanese and South Korean healthcare models to see if there's anything worth taking from there.

But it seems nearly impossible to address any of the issues, because of the sheer volume of rage that comes from certain political sectors whenever anyone broaches the subject of NHS funding.

Because people are stupid.

We have the most incompetent government in my living memory led by a man who could not lie in bed straight. Yet there's people on here defending them. We're all fucked

@FangsForTheMemory

There are an awful lot of people repeating Tory lines on here and I can't help wondering who's paying them to.

'People only disagree with the One True Path if they are being paid.' Yeah, right.

It's not just the NHS failing though is it?!

Education, Social Care, CAMHS...all chronically under funded and not fit for purpose. People leaving those professions in high numbers (data/articles available to back up).

It's interesting that the most the pro Tory posters here have done is not deny that the NHS is failing and underfunded (impossible) - but say that it was going to be screwed up anyway - ringing endorsement!

As to why people vote Conservative - I can see it's natural to want to associate oneself with a party that markets itself for the "well off, the ambitious, low tax/get back what you put in" etc etc. One poster on here "I'm not earning 75k but one day I might..." It's the hope, the dream that "one day" there's a mythical pot of wealth that another party would take away. The myth that higher tax takes away ambition (waves as a wealthy person, no it bloody doesn't, ambition comes from within).

The truth is that the wealthy that currently the Tory party policies protect the very wealthiest - Generational wealth, land owners, millionaires. Those who are "vunerable" to tax but immune to needing public systems.

And as for traditional values, our PM can't/won't answer how many children he has across relationships in, out and around his marriage/s - whilst tax breaks protect the married and penalise single parents.

I would vote Tory if it's policies started addressing some of the problems our society has. Ignoring the magic hands "look over here at immigrants" schtick but the real problems that our vunerable children, elderly, mentally ill - are not getting the help they need.

It would be great to see a pro-Tory poster on here say "I voted Tory because they've improved x, y z" with links and data - but in 15 pages that hasn't happened. Instead regurgitation of the standard marketing spiel. It reminds me a bit of the USA - the "American Dream" keeps voters away from public policy reforms, the fear of higher tax - the reality is that the wealth divide is getting greater - the American "dream" exactly that. It's happening here too now.

We need to stop voting for the mythical, one day wealthy carrot party and vote for policies are going to address the problems our society faces today. I'd actually like to see cross party policy making - the current party system is broken too. But that is radical reform.

@chaosmaker

Where did I tell people which party to vote for? I just suggested gently that people would be better off (for their own good) doing some basic research before the cross went in the box!

Allow me to remind you of your OP:

AIBU that we should allow people with no sense to vote or
AINBU am I right in that people should have to factor history and rare sense into their decision making?

Telling people they are thick for not voting according to your preference. As I said upthread - always a compelling argument on the doorstep.

Have you done much doorstepping for political parties, in constituencies which don't vote for your preferred controller?

But keep on digging.

Because people felt truly let down by Labour and that they were no longer represented by them. Labour need to be seen as a viable alternative if they are to win back the trust of the voters.

Imagine a group of people, with different views and values creating viable policies that leave key public systems working effectively...

Instead of the current party that focuses on sound bites like "Dishi Rishi" and "Eat Out To Help Out" - thanks for your contribution Allegra...oh wait...

Telling people they are thick for not voting according to your preference. As I said upthread - always a compelling argument on the doorstep.

And they're always surprised when the Tories get back in. 😁 What on earth could they be getting wrong here.

Imagine a group of people, with different views and values creating viable policies that leave key public systems working effectively...

That sounds great. Who did you have in mind to deliver this?

[quote swissmodel]@daimbarsatemydogsbone

I meant evil policies not people. I couldn't give a stuff whether the actual ministers or good people or hypocrites. In fact I'd be quite surprised if politicians were indeed morally upstanding.

Tory stands for (as far as policy goes) truth, personal responsibility, morality and freedom. Labour is the antithesis of those values.[/quote]
So let’s get this straight, according to you -
Labour have evil policies but decent politicians and the Tories have lovely policies but despicable politicians - and that’s OK?