To not want to lie to DD just so that we don't offend other people's religious and cultural sentiments?

[AliveAndSleeping]

I (and the majority of people) don't believe in this. We know it's not true. I have told DD that I don't believe in it but it's a nice story based loosely on history and that some others do believe it. She can make Up her own mind.

However, now the country I live in has very strong feelings on this matter. I feel that because of peer pressure I need to tell DD either that it is true or ask her to keep quiet about it or her friends will feel bad. I'm worried that if she'll voice her disbelief in the existence of this entity both the other kids and their parents will be offended and possibly ostracise her for it. I'm not exaggerating. Even the Catholic diocese had to apologise today for the comments of one of its bishops who inadvertently told kids the truth.

I'm tempted to lie to her just so that she won't offend anyone. I really don't want to. I don't think I should have to.

What would you do? Would you pretend that Santa exists even though you know that's not true? I love Christmas. I love all the Christmas traditions. The lights, the decorations, advent calendars, Christmas cookies. Even Christmas carols.
Why do kids need to believe in a mythical figure to make christmas magical? Isn't the other stuff enough? If it was any other religious or cultural sentiment would I be expected to lie and go against my beliefs to enable other people to continue with their deceit?

@TheKeatingFive

Their childhoods are full and complete without lies about Santa.

I find this very black and white understanding of 'lies versus truth' very limited and ignorant. Humans have always understood the world via stories, myths, legends. They are ways of understanding complex emotions and bigger human concepts.

Children's understanding of 'truth' is particularly fluid. My little boy tells me he's a ninja and at night he flies off to ninja school to learn tricks. On some level he genuinely believes this (or wants to believe it). Of course he won't keep this up for ever, but this kind of magical realism is clearly a developmental stage we all go through.

Yeh sure, my DD2 tells me she's Spider-Man. But I don't then tell her everyday she is actually Spider-Man. Just like you don't tell your DS he's a real life ninja year in year out, do you?

Just like you don't tell your DS he's a real life ninja year in year out, do you?

I smile and agree with him. What harm's in that? He'll grow out of it in time.

I'm not going to lie to my DS about Santa.
What's wrong with telling him that parents give him gifts because they love him? Why do the gifts have to be from an imaginary man?

@AliveAndSleeping why do you put cookies out then if she knows hes not real, thats a bit pointless surely
Just ask her to give you a biscuit
You are really making something out of nothing , making out almost your a better parent because your not lying
Yet i guarantee you will pf lied to her at some point even to spare feelings
Its really not hard to explain to your child that some children believe in santa so therefore be kind and say nothing , we tell out children this a lot about various things .
Many of us with older children tell them not to tell younger children and kids get this , why can't you

why do you put cookies out then if she knows hes not real, thats a bit pointless surely

I'm not the poster you're referring to, but I was raised not to believe in Santa and we still put out milk and cookies for santa, and a carrot for Rudolph. My parents explained it as a fun Christmas tradition, like stockings or decorating the tree.

I knew the carrot went back in the fridge and that the milk and cookies went to my parents, but it was still a fun tradition to take part it and I didn't need to believe in Santa to do it.

@MoonRiverLaLaLa and thats your choice , my kids had presents from us and couple from santa but santa brought them .
My kids know I love them a present doesn't show them that
Mine are 18 and 16 now so stopped believing a long long time ago but they both said christmas was more magical when they believed and were more than able to not tell their friends or younger cousins he wasn't real and understand it wasn't there place to ruin it for others

@icedcoffees but the tradition is based on santa eating it and there being half a carrot or cookie
Thats the tradition its for santa not for show

@icedcoffees its nothing like decorating a tree your acknowledging rudolph , santa jus but doing this

You are making a big deal out of nothing.

I knew a woman who told her dd she had to 'believe to receive'. I think that's a barmy message to give a child but it's also none of my business if she is a nutcase.

Two of my kids asked me if Santa was real at 6 and I said 'no, but try not to tell other kids as they might still believe'.

It has not been complicated in the slightest and I have not been ostracised.

I’m an atheist who does Christmas as a social obligation. My son is too young to care at the moment, but we’ll probably ‘do Santa’ when he’s little. I don’t see it as lying, I see it as participating in a fun story. I don’t think I’m lying when I play pretend with my son.

This whole thing has just got me thinking of that speech from Hogfather.

I don’t think you’re joyless for not doing Santa, OP. I do think you’re overthinking it though. You don’t have to join in, and it would be someone else’s problem if your daughter says anything about it to another kid.

My mum frequently told me as a child not to mention that I didn’t believe in god in order to not upset religious children, and I didn’t find that particularly difficult.

@stormyalphabet

Even the Catholic diocese had to apologise today for the comments of one of its bishops who inadvertently told kids the truth

This definitely depends on your definition of the truth.

I looked that up, it happened in Sicily;

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/11/no-ho-ho-italian-church-apologises-over-bishops-claim-about-santa-claus

[quote worriedatthemoment]@icedcoffees but the tradition is based on santa eating it and there being half a carrot or cookie
Thats the tradition its for santa not for show [/quote]
Why does it matter, though?

Why can't we just do something because it's fun without pretending it's for a mythical being like Santa?

[quote worriedatthemoment]@icedcoffees its nothing like decorating a tree your acknowledging rudolph , santa jus but doing this [/quote]
Well, only if you introduce it to your children as being about believing in Santa.

In my family, it was just a fun activity like decorating the tree or putting stockings out.

What? Santa's not real? Shit- I better do some shopping!

You do you. That's what parenting is.

Personally we love santa, as the bigger dc discover the truth they help keep the magic for the little ones. Presumably they would not do this if they felt betrayed and let down by their terrible parents lying to them.

My DD is three and doesn't really understand Christmas. As far as I'm aware she thinks Santa is a character just like Peppa Pig. I think the whole Santa thing is dumb. I'm going to tell her we but her presents and not make a big deal of it. If other parents get upset then that's not my problem. They're the ones telling their children pointless lies.

Anyway, I've got zero problems with parents who do tell their kids that Santa is real. My problem is that I don't want to do that (and now the horse had bolted that stable anyway) and I don't want DD to get into trouble or end up hurting another little child by inadvertently mentioning that she doesn't believe that Santa is real.

I genuinely don’t understand what it is you want to happen.

You want British society not to collude in the Santa myth so that your daughter won’t accidentally ruin the magic for someone else?

She won’t get in trouble from anyone and she won’t ruin anyone’s Christmas.

Santa will still deliver the presents to the houses he was going to regardless.

Any savvy parent will have an answer ready for the ‘So and so says that Santa’s not real’ and if they don’t that’s not your problem,

“DD, some families pretend that Santa is real, and they like keeping it that way, so until your friends find out for themselves - and everyone finds out eventually- it’s better not to tell them.”

And then if she’s confused about lying/always telling the truth you say this isn’t a lie, it’s just not ruining someone’s fun tradition. It’s being mindful of their feelings.

The bishop is a hypocrite to tell kids Santa isn't real whilst he as a grown adult still believes in God.

Tell yours whatever you want to.

When my eldest asked if Santa was real (her friend had told her he wasn’t). My answer was
Christmas is a magical time and people believe lots of different things and have different Christmas traditions. For me, it’s all about the magic. And you can choose to believe in that magic for as long as you want. You can choose to do whatever you feel that makes Christmas special for you.

She told me that makes sense. She no longer believed in Santa, but she said she had chosen to believe in the magic she felt he brought to our Christmas eves.
She chose to indulge a little longer in that fantasy world.

Tell your child what you want. But surely it’s better, like with religion, to tell them they can choose what they want to believe in?

Exactly this. Our DC like to play make-believe with fairies, monsters, mermaids etc., not once have we told them they are real. So why on Earth are parents making an exception for Santa???

Have you gone out of your way to tell them they aren’t real, though? It may depend on age but my son (3) informed me earlier that he was a ‘scary dragon’ (he loves Room on the Broom). I didn’t feel the need to tell him that dragons don’t exist and that even if they did he isn’t one. I said ‘you’re SUCH a scary dragon’ and pretended to be scared while he roared. Am I telling lies?

Children young enough to believe is Santa are easily settled when someone tells them santa isn't real with a 'santa just doesn't go to them because they are on the naughty list' so I've never really cared when its happened with my 3.

My eldest is 9 and asked me if santa was real and this is the first time I told him the truth because he is too old to be blagged now. I told him once you learn the truth about santa, you become a santa and have to help keep the magic alive for the younger ones. Hes been brilliant with his siblings since! And has been a proper helper for me.

@NoSquirrels

Anyway, I've got zero problems with parents who do tell their kids that Santa is real. My problem is that I don't want to do that (and now the horse had bolted that stable anyway) and I don't want DD to get into trouble or end up hurting another little child by inadvertently mentioning that she doesn't believe that Santa is real.

I genuinely don’t understand what it is you want to happen.

You want British society not to collude in the Santa myth so that your daughter won’t accidentally ruin the magic for someone else?

She won’t get in trouble from anyone and she won’t ruin anyone’s Christmas.

Santa will still deliver the presents to the houses he was going to regardless.

Any savvy parent will have an answer ready for the ‘So and so says that Santa’s not real’ and if they don’t that’s not your problem,

“DD, some families pretend that Santa is real, and they like keeping it that way, so until your friends find out for themselves - and everyone finds out eventually- it’s better not to tell them.”

And then if she’s confused about lying/always telling the truth you say this isn’t a lie, it’s just not ruining someone’s fun tradition. It’s being mindful of their feelings.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

"You want British society not to collude in the Santa myth so that your daughter won’t accidentally ruin the magic for someone else?"

No..not at all.

"She won’t get in trouble from anyone and she won’t ruin anyone’s Christmas."

Yes, that's all I want. If that is the case anyway then I probably have been overthinking this and worrying unnecessarily.

Looking at a lot of the responses that doesn't seem to be the case. But then I guess Mumsnet hopefully isn't representative of the wider society.

[quote worriedatthemoment]@AliveAndSleeping why do you put cookies out then if she knows hes not real, thats a bit pointless surely
Just ask her to give you a biscuit
You are really making something out of nothing , making out almost your a better parent because your not lying
Yet i guarantee you will pf lied to her at some point even to spare feelings
Its really not hard to explain to your child that some children believe in santa so therefore be kind and say nothing , we tell out children this a lot about various things .
Many of us with older children tell them not to tell younger children and kids get this , why can't you
[/quote]
That's the whole point. It's fun doing it even without saying it's real. Do your kids never pretend to be fairies, superheroes, zombies or firemen? It's just a game. It's fun. That's all. I assume all the adults that take part in these traditions enjoy it as well even though they don't believe in santa.

My problem is that I don't want to do that (and now the horse had bolted that stable anyway) and I don't want DD to get into trouble or end up hurting another little child by inadvertently mentioning that she doesn't believe that Santa is real.

Honestly (and intended kindly) I think your problem is perfectionism. You can't control everything that happens, so don't worry about not being able to do so.

You made your choice about Santa, other people made different ones, you recognised they might come into conflict so you've done your best to manage that graciously, but it's not really that big of a deal if an accident happens.

Some of your statements show a flair for the dramatic, like saying that "I resent being forced to lie" (or similar wording, I'm not going back through the thread) and "Santa is the only religion we're not allowed to question". Neither of those statements is true or even close to true, they're being made to justify the fact that you can't get comfortable with the imperfect and uncontrollable situation you're in by making out that it's a bigger drama than it really is. You keep arguing with people about details like the thread is eventually going to boil down to a 'right' answer and a 'wrong' answer.

It's not and there isn't. You're focusing on a small number of people who disagree with you when actually the majority of people have said something along the lines of "Just tell her that it's a tradition here for kids to believe in Santa so you guys are playing along with others for a couple more years."

I mean nobody actually thinks he's real so millions of parents lie about it every year. So far I've never met anyone who was deeply damaged by finding out the truth past some sadness when they realised.

So yeah I'd lie.