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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Under 14s in NZ to be banned from ever buying cigarettes in their lifetime

234 replies

Shouldiwearmyhairinaponytail · 09/12/2021 15:42

metro.co.uk/2021/12/09/new-zealand-bans-people-14-and-under-from-ever-buying-cigarettes-15743607/

Thoughts?

OP posts:
Blossom64265 · 09/12/2021 17:57

It makes sense. Ban it for anyone who hasn’t picked up the habit. As the population ages, eventually there will be no more customers left.

It should have worked to simply tell people how crazy it was to start smoking so this should have happened years ago, yet somehow young people still keep trying it and get addicted.

HotPenguin · 09/12/2021 17:59

Great idea. It's another step in making smoking socially unacceptable.

BiBabbles · 09/12/2021 18:02

I agree it feels very headline grabby, it seems an odd priority in terms of health inequality, and I wonder if this is extended to other nicotine products.

The plan to reduce who can sell them is an interesting concept, if concerning on how that will be implemented.

Like I say where do you draw the line. Will it eventually be all junk food too and alcohol?

While I'm for decriminalization and moving addiction more into a social care issue if there was the resources there among other things to reduce drug use, there are plenty of products that are banned in the UK.

I mean, we had sprinklegate over what we have can have in cake decorations not that long ago.

cigarettes don’t get you high and are just massively addictive and harmful vs MDMA or weed.

Some people do experience a type of high on cigarettes as they have a stimulant as well as a depressant effect and it causes a release of reward neurotransmitters like alcohol, marijuana and MDMA.

Alongside the brain reward boost, part of cigarettes addictive quality is that it gives energy and relaxation hit that later when it's out of the system causes the hormones connected to stress and anxiety to rise again causing the cravings. Much like those who smoke weed, the effects can be seen in some who live with smokers, for better and for worse, and there are alternative ways than smoking to get the same effect without risking others.

There are many factors when it comes to addictiveness and harm that making direct comparisons are difficult to make, but claiming something is 'just' addictive and harmful with no benefits has no benefit itself. We can't really get into harm reduction and alternatives if we don't recognize what makes different forms of self-medication enjoyable, no matter how much we may personally dislike them.

I was also very struck by the liver specialist on the programme Adrian Chiles made about his drinking who told him that if we had understood the effects of alcohol and were discovering it now, it would be a banned substance because it causes so much damage.

The idea that banning is entirely wrapped up in how much harm something causes is popular, but it's more complicated than that, often balanced with benefits (like cars and the internet), control of supply and alternative industries lobbying to maintain power, social ideas around who uses a product, among other factors.

People invent things all the time that cause harm and have many risks. The question is what is the government's role in mitigating that, considering how what's been tried so far has worked, and what roles can/should others play in that when it comes to recreational drug use for pleasure or to self-medicate away pain. The destructive risks make that complicated.

LuluBlakey1 · 09/12/2021 18:03

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p088gvpq

This is the episode about the ITU in Wales. It really struck me that so many serious health issues are related to poor lifestyle choices and how those are related to social deprivation and its impact on people's lives and how they live. The conversation with the Drs about it starts about 28 minutes in and it's fascinating. You also see some of the patients and the impact on them and what they lose in life through their choices.

I don't want to baby people but what kind of society does not take factors that impact on the health of the nation seriously.

Far fewer teenagers smoke now than did 15-18 years ago when I started teaching. The ones who do generally live in households where adults smoke. I do think smoking is one we could change by a process of banning it and banning vaping on the same process. I think it should be illegal to smoke in any public space, including outside. We have made progress with smoking and should not be afraid to keep extending those restrictions.

Obesity, alcohol, drugs are more difficult.

AlternativePerspective · 09/12/2021 18:09

I wonder if people would be celebrating if it was alcohol they were proposing a ban on. Somehow I think not.

TheFrendo · 09/12/2021 18:26

This is a ludicrous plan.

It will both criminalize young, disproportionately Maori, smokers.

And provide a crime opportunity in the illegal supply of cigarettes.

IAAP · 09/12/2021 18:31

Do it here please

CourtRand · 09/12/2021 18:31

Fabulous. Wish they'd done that when I was a teen 😩

CourtRand · 09/12/2021 18:32

@Shouldiwearmyhairinaponytail

So eventually nobody will be able to buy cigarettes regardless of their age.. or am I just misunderstanding
Correct. They can't be sold to anyone with a birthdate after X date. So never. When they're 35 they still can't buy. That way the trade will slowly phase out completely
CourtRand · 09/12/2021 18:33

@AlternativePerspective

Smoking is a vile habit, but….

If they ban cigarettes are they going to ban vaping as well? Even though there are potentially still long-term effects from it which are unknown?

Tobacco brings in billions in tax every year, where’s that shortfall going to be made up?

Presumably in the less tax paid towards smoking related health issues
CourtRand · 09/12/2021 18:34

@TheFrendo

This is a ludicrous plan.

It will both criminalize young, disproportionately Maori, smokers.

And provide a crime opportunity in the illegal supply of cigarettes.

Under 14 Maori people are smoking already? And oh.. no, they can't smoke. The horror of living a healthier life.
TomPinch · 09/12/2021 18:41

@TheFrendo

This is a ludicrous plan.

It will both criminalize young, disproportionately Maori, smokers.

And provide a crime opportunity in the illegal supply of cigarettes.

The government are fucked either way regarding Maori. The ban will be alleged to be discriminatory because Maori are proportionally more likely to smoke. And if the government do nothing they'll be discriminating because ... more Maori smoke. So I think this point is neutral.

They'll get the usual ticking off in the Waitangi Tribunal and no one will pay much attention.

I don't think the crime angle will be a big deal tbh. Smoking really is on the way out here. I can't remember the last time I smelled cigarette smoke.

TurnUpTurnip · 09/12/2021 18:43

I think it’s great but then I would like to see them completely banned

Buttercup54321 · 09/12/2021 18:49

A profitable trade in undercover sales will soon spring up.

HailAdrian · 09/12/2021 18:58

Fantastic idea. Smoking is pointless and after watching someone die as a result of it, I would completely support banning tobacco products altogether.

Hesma · 09/12/2021 18:58

Good

ThisissoSHIT · 09/12/2021 18:59

@AlternativePerspective

I wonder if people would be celebrating if it was alcohol they were proposing a ban on. Somehow I think not.
Alcohol can be enjoyed in moderation.
reesewithoutaspoon · 09/12/2021 19:02

Won't it just become more attractive to teenagers again. Older kids can just sell them to them

mbosnz · 09/12/2021 19:04

My concern is what this is going to do in terms of armed raids on dairys, etc. Smokes are going to become even more valuable contraband.

And also, more alluring. In terms of grooming, paying for illegal shit.

AllesAusLiebe · 09/12/2021 19:08

My god, that woman is unhinged.

Yes, it will make smoking more attractive to teenagers and will lead to an increase in illegal smuggling and criminality.

I say this as someone who bitterly regrets ever picking up a cigarette as a teen. A better strategy would be to come down hard on those who continue to sell age-restricted products to kids.

VikingVolva · 09/12/2021 19:10

I think they're going about it in a good way.

They're essentially banning itbfir thuse under the cut-off, which is set low enough that the overwhelming majority will not have started. And won't get the chance to start whilst still young.

And people very, very rarely take up smoking once into their twenties. If they never start, they won't miss it. It'll bring through a generation who don't smoke and don't want to either.

(I wonder what it'll mean for ways of cannabis consumption? Not something that the law has to consider, as it's banned)

TomPinch · 09/12/2021 19:55

Yes I was wondering about cannabis too - maybe this is an attempt to have an indirect hit at it too. Cannabis use here is very high.

I do find the attempts to eliminate tobacco use inconsistent with the push up legitimise cannabis. They're both dangerous, after all.

Swirlywoo · 09/12/2021 20:04

Interesting idea. Initial thoughts on it are a) prohibition in the 30s, and how well that went, and b) the perverse psychology of teenagers (or maybe that was just me).

youvemademyshitlist · 09/12/2021 20:26

History tells us that prohibition achieves nothing.

AnotherOneWithNoGoodName · 09/12/2021 20:31

It will create a black market, thats all.
And some of the sellers on the black market will be doing other seriously dodgy stuff with the money they make from the illegal sale of cigarettes.