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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Why do people have sympathy for murderers and child abusers?

132 replies

Sweetchocolatecandy · 08/12/2021 15:50

I’ve seen a few comments recently on threads about child abuse (specifically little Arthur) where some posters have said they feel sorry for the likes of murderers such as Tuston as she must have had mental health issues or a rough upbringing herself to make her commit an act like that. Do people really think like this? I suffer from mental health issues but I would never, ever hurt a child and I know people deal with past experiences differently but I think it’s insulting to blame ‘mental health’ for committing abuse and murder.

AIBU?

OP posts:
GreetingsAndSalutations · 08/12/2021 16:00

I don’t think wondering what someone’s mental health/upbringing is/was like is being sympathetic towards them when that person has gone to commit a terrible horrendous crime(s). I have poor mental health myself and had a shifty upbringing, for what it’s worth. I am not a child abuser but I’m not offended by people pondering this.

I have idly wondered what lead to such hatred for a little child to the levels of cruelty Arthur was subjected to even before his violent death. Not got an ounce of sympathy for either of those wastes of oxygen. That said, I do feel empathy for Arthur’s birth mother who has also killed someone, as one mother to another. I would feel that for any other parent who’s child had died.

BrightonOrLancaster · 08/12/2021 16:02

You can find someone horrific and deplorable and want them locked away without completely overlooking their past

If Arthur had lived and had grown up to be a violent man, would you not also think back to his tragic childhood with some empathy?

x2boys · 08/12/2021 16:04

Maybe because ,she's female ?
Mumsnet can be very anti men but when it comes to women doing something abhorrent,some posters try to look for a reason .

Dahlietta · 08/12/2021 16:05

I don't think that pondering whether something caused a person to act so abominably means that you have sympathy for them exactly.

Samcro · 08/12/2021 16:06

people always do this. they can't believe some people are just evil,

ChristmasJumpers · 08/12/2021 16:08

My DH and I were just talking about this poor little boy. Sadly if he hadn't died from his cruel treatment, the chances are he would have grown up with severe issues from his childhood. Who's to say how he'd have behaved towards others with the mental scars he'd have.

No sympathy whatsoever towards anyone who could hurt a child but it does have me wondering what exactly was wrong with them or anybody who could lay their hands on a child!

Hospedia · 08/12/2021 16:09

I haven't seen anyone express sympathy towards them but I have seen comments around the lack of support services and lack of early intervention - usually due to budgetary cuts - and that if these services/interventions had been available then perhaps they wouldn't have ended up killing someone. There have been numerous cases where the perpetrators were failed by the system, this doesn't mean that their crimes are forgivable or excusable, its just an acknowledgement that they were not acting in a vacuum and that the system was culpable in creating the circumstances that led to the crime.

AlfonsoTheUnrepentant · 08/12/2021 16:10

Because they (1) they like to pride themselves on being empathetic and (2) they're so open-minded their brains have fallen out.

AliveAndSleeping · 08/12/2021 16:15

@Samcro

people always do this. they can't believe some people are just evil,
I don't believe that people are evil. I don't believe in evil. It's not supported scientifically. I think the lack of empathy is a mental health issue (and I have mental health problems myself).

I do think it's important to look at what could have caused this abhorrent behaviour. If you don't and just use the excuse of "some people are just evil" then how can you even begin to try to avoid this from happening again?

Having said that my heart breaks for that little boy and I hope she'll never be released as she isn't safe to be s member of society.

GlitterSquid · 08/12/2021 16:16

I've had some very severe episodes of poor mental health and never, not once have I become a cruel, unkind, harmful person.

I truly believe there is a difference between a mental illness (which can be treated) and personality psychopathies which are dyed in the wool 'how someone is made'. I.E, lacking in empathy etc.

The two are not the same.

Svadhyaya · 08/12/2021 16:17

No sympathy, but I think it's dangerous to dismiss them as simply being 'evil', as I have seen happen a lot. It's important to understand what leads people to commit these crimes as that's the only way we can work towards prevention for future children. Referring to child killers as 'pure evil' over-simplifies and is unhelpful in spotting red flags in other potential cases.

soapboxqueen · 08/12/2021 16:18

There's a difference between empathising with a child in difficult circumstances and the adult they become when they do something horrific.

It's also reasonable to ponder why somebody does something so terrible. Understanding reasons isn't the same as accepting excuses.

penguinwithasuitcase · 08/12/2021 16:18

Some vast leaps of logic in your OP, OP.

Mosbiusdesigns · 08/12/2021 16:21

It's the cycle of abuse isn't it. I don't think what they've done is right obviously but for example Arthur's dad and step-mother, what were their childhoods like for them to think that's OK? What is wrong in them that they would do that? People will also, understandably, never want to think people have done horrific things purely for the enjoyment of it, so we look for the why. Mental health, drugs, abusive childhood, coerced, financially forced/motivated.

NightmareSlashDelightful · 08/12/2021 16:21

I'm not sure I'd call it sympathy, but I have an open-minded 'seek to understand' kind of mentality around things like this. I don't believe in 'evil people'. I think some people do evil things, which is different.

AliveAndSleeping · 08/12/2021 16:21

@GlitterSquid

I've had some very severe episodes of poor mental health and never, not once have I become a cruel, unkind, harmful person.

I truly believe there is a difference between a mental illness (which can be treated) and personality psychopathies which are dyed in the wool 'how someone is made'. I.E, lacking in empathy etc.

The two are not the same.

I once heard a professor of neuroscience say that there is no aspect or faculty of yourself that cannot be taken away or altered by injury or an illness.

I think it's important to realise that any of us are capable of vile acts (even if unlikely). If you don't we can't protect the vulnerable. You are lucky you were born with empathy and we are all lucky that most people are born with empathy and haven't been through enough trauma to lose it.

Imdreamingofapeacefulxmas · 08/12/2021 16:23

Op be careful.

Some posters discuss what led her to that and raise her background (I've not seen any evidence she had a poor background), they simply discuss why they think it came to that.

Some posters... However are excusing her behaviour. But there are a few Different camps and discussing how it came to that doesn't mean they are excusing her.

Imdreamingofapeacefulxmas · 08/12/2021 16:25
  • I'm not sure re cycle of abuse, arthur wasn't her dc she apparently was OK with her own dc...

Arthur's wasn't really a child to her more of an obstacle and truth seer I expect.

Newgirls · 08/12/2021 16:25

There is a woman in our neighbourhood who was abusive to her kids and husband - she has serious mental health issues which she takes mediation for. Some are keen to support her and others stay well clear. Which is right? Who knows.

DoucheCanoe · 08/12/2021 16:27

I don't have sympathy for the person as they are now but I do have sympathy for the environment that attributed to the person they've become..

Psychology and sociology fascinate me. I don't believe that people are born "evil".

Cyw2018 · 08/12/2021 16:27

I was attacked at work by a nasty drug and alcohol addicted man who targets women.

As a child he was subjected to the most horrendous sexual abuse, his mother died when he was relatively young, he has SEN and mental health issues.

I can feel empathy for this man, and especially for the small vulnerable child he once was, whilst at the same time being happy that he received a custodial sentence and hoping I NEVER cross paths with him again.

Jellycatspyjamas · 08/12/2021 16:28

If Arthur had lived and had grown up to be a violent man, would you not also think back to his tragic childhood with some empathy?

I think it’s very easy to see the harmed, vulnerable child and have concern and empathy for them, to want to rescue them but those children are also the ones that grow to struggle with behaviours, become teens with issues around aggression and addiction, become anti-social adults. The impact of early trauma and neglect can be all pervasive and life long without appropriate intervention and can lead to very harmful behaviours towards others and towards themselves.

The same people who will wring their hands about the death of this child are the same ones complaining about parents getting money to pay for food over lockdown, are the same ones who don’t invite “that child” to play with their child, are the same ones judging teens with anti-social behaviour etc etc. It’s easy to forget these neglected, abused children grow into adults who carry the emotional and psychological scars, which impact every area of their lives. Not all adults who experience abuse go on to hurt others, but people who hurt others have usually been hurt themselves. It’s not an excuse and it doesn’t mean they aren’t accountable for their behaviour but the more we understand, the more we can prevent.

I’ve worked with parents who have really harmed their kids (CP social worker), in every case without exception their own early experiences were equally horrific. Their own children needed to be protected of course, but it’s hard not to have some empathy for and understanding of how the parents got to that point.

afromom · 08/12/2021 16:28

I wouldn't say I have sympathy with people who have committed awful crimes, nor would I ever excuse their actions on their poor childhood/mental health/experiences. However having worked in some prisons and spent time with some prisoners, as well as in social care roles I do now have a better understanding of why people are led to behave in the way they do. The psychology behind these sort of crimes, I do find interesting, as awful as it is.
Most people I know obviously haven't worked in these roles and really find it hard to in anyway understand how anyone could act in that way. The point of view of my colleagues however is very different having spent time with these people and getting to know them.
I think your take on people having sympathy for them is probably misjudged and it's more from a place of understanding than sympathy.

Svadhyaya · 08/12/2021 16:30

OP, read 'The Devil you know' by Gwen Adshead. She explains the bicycle lock theory whereby an exact combination of circumstances lead to events that we describe as evil. So for example, abusive childhood AND mental health disorder AND situational stress AND a specific trigger. So in a different set of circumstances, whilst she may never have been a particularly pleasant person, Tustin may never have become a murderer.

notanothertakeaway · 08/12/2021 16:34

@Jellycatspyjamas

If Arthur had lived and had grown up to be a violent man, would you not also think back to his tragic childhood with some empathy?

I think it’s very easy to see the harmed, vulnerable child and have concern and empathy for them, to want to rescue them but those children are also the ones that grow to struggle with behaviours, become teens with issues around aggression and addiction, become anti-social adults. The impact of early trauma and neglect can be all pervasive and life long without appropriate intervention and can lead to very harmful behaviours towards others and towards themselves.

The same people who will wring their hands about the death of this child are the same ones complaining about parents getting money to pay for food over lockdown, are the same ones who don’t invite “that child” to play with their child, are the same ones judging teens with anti-social behaviour etc etc. It’s easy to forget these neglected, abused children grow into adults who carry the emotional and psychological scars, which impact every area of their lives. Not all adults who experience abuse go on to hurt others, but people who hurt others have usually been hurt themselves. It’s not an excuse and it doesn’t mean they aren’t accountable for their behaviour but the more we understand, the more we can prevent.

I’ve worked with parents who have really harmed their kids (CP social worker), in every case without exception their own early experiences were equally horrific. Their own children needed to be protected of course, but it’s hard not to have some empathy for and understanding of how the parents got to that point.

Completely agree with this from @Jellycatspyjamas

I come across adults whose lives have gone badly wrong. Yes, they do make terrible choices, but without exception, they

had horrific life experiences in childhood

BTW, I completely accept that many people who had horrific life experiences choose to / are able to lead more positive lives

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