Why do people have sympathy for murderers and child abusers?

[Sweetchocolatecandy]

I’ve seen a few comments recently on threads about child abuse (specifically little Arthur) where some posters have said they feel sorry for the likes of murderers such as Tuston as she must have had mental health issues or a rough upbringing herself to make her commit an act like that. Do people really think like this? I suffer from mental health issues but I would never, ever hurt a child and I know people deal with past experiences differently but I think it’s insulting to blame ‘mental health’ for committing abuse and murder.

AIBU?

It's very hard to have sympathy for anyone who inflicts any sort of abuse on anyone and until I met a young boy who had raped his younger brother I would have said castrate them all. Sad thing was he had been raped whilst growing up by numerous male family members, he was suicidal at what he had done to his brother but to him it was normal behaviour until it wasn't.

Also paedohiles, they're wired to find children sexually attractive, I'm sure no one would choose to be that way but it's the same internal wiring that makes us heterosexual or homosexual. It's appalling and wrong and many lives are ruined but what do we do about it? It's a conundrum that there is no answer to. Execute them at the first sniff of their predilection, stick them on an island with others of their ilk or just lock them up for life?

I don't feel sorry for them at all, I'm enraged by the abuse meted out to anyone, especially children but it's not as clear cut as people being inherently evil. Very few people are.

The killers of James Bulger, their awful chaotic lives, the lack of normal love and affection went a long way to contributing to their actions, whilst a lot of people sit in their nice normal safe warm loving homes and declare these people are evil there is far far more to it.

I’m stealing this

Be sure to credit Spike Milligan.

I think that more people grow up in abusive homes than don't.

So adults abuse children on a huge scale.

This happens because children are seen as second class citizens. Nobody cares about children's wants.

We need to respect children a lot more.

We need to put a lot more in place to protect our most vulnerable.

Vital, offer them castration

There is a distinction between looking at the childhood out of interest and excusing the crime because of the threat childhoods.

In tustin case this was not her child she was OK with her own.
Re Hughes.. Not sure what childhood he had.

Mufasa yes.

There but for the grace of God go any of us. I was fortunate to be born into a family where I wasn’t abused, to grow up without the threat of violence and to not have any inherent MH needs. Not everyone has that. Yes they took a choice but maybe that wasn’t a “free” choice due to their backgrounds.

How wonderful of a positive legacy of all this hideousness was a rise in the number of people prepared to get their hands dirty and foster/adopt children and help them try to escape these cycles.

@WingingItSince1973, I just want to say I am sorry you had such a horrible experience growing up and that you are now going through difficulties with your own daughter and grandchild. It is understandable you'd feel anger and other complicated things reading about this case but you are also showing strength and self reflection in your thoughts on what can be done. I have avoided reading all the details because why would I want that in my mind when I can do nothing? But reading this thread a couple of things strike me: some posters keep saying Tustin treated her own children well - a cursory search affirmed that she had parental rights for at least two removed.

That search also showed her 'normal' behaviour was violent and manipulative. I have had to live at close quarters with quite a few people like that, the one thing I have learnt is to keep them at as far a distance as possible , not to try to be 'friends' or have any relationship at all so the mere fact that the father of Arthur leapt into a relationship with her speaks volumes. Also why is the behaviour of the father not subject to the same outraged scrutiny? Hughes was the father , at any time he could have removed Arthur from the home, he chose to live with Tustin during lockdown. He allowed and joined in the abuse.

Also @Mustafa1118, I think you have the insight into your own triggers that so many lack and so many on this thread seem to denigrate so I would only say please be careful who you confide in and share your feelings with.

Of course it is not inevitable that abused children become abusers. The difference is made by what other influences they have been exposed to in their lives.
Positive role models and positive interventions are key. Perhaps they have been 'rescued' from the situation by being removed from it, or by the abuser being removed.

Also important is how much education the child has accessed, each day a chance for a teacher to report a concern. Education also enables a child to see for themselves what is 'normal' and what is not and teaches them how to express their concerns.
Very important to are neighbours - an incentive to all of us not to remain silent over a concern. Even if reported anonymously, it might ring a bell in some quarter that just might enable further investigation to begin.

It's very sad to know that people are often very ready to report suspected animal abuse, but hesitant to report a concern about a neighbours child. Surely it's better to report a concern than to let a child continue to be I'll-treated for another minute of their life.

Only on this site have I seen so many people sympathetic towards these type of child abusers and killers.
In the real world not one person says they deserve the air they breath, on here though they seem think umm out side of the box …

You read the entire thread Hertsgirl and still think that a belief that this sort of heinous cruelty might have some kind of root cause that could be considered is 'sympathy'?

@Hertsgirl10

Only on this site have I seen so many people sympathetic towards these type of child abusers and killers. In the real world not one person says they deserve the air they breath, on here though they seem think umm out side of the box …

Where are you seeing sympathy?

Are people actually reading what people are saying? It is about prevention of abuse by trying to understand its root causes and working to ensure that we can identify people who are at risk of abusing children before they do so. Not sympathy or forgiveness of abusers.

I'm sure on here some people do not understand the difference between 'sympathy' and 'explanation' or the link between 'cause' and 'effect'.

No idea how anybody can see 'sympathy for abusers' in any of these posts across at least 2 threads.

I was talking about some other threads i’v seen on here. There’s a lot of sympathetic people talking about their poor childhoods and I keep seeing people saying IF Arthur didn’t die then he ‘could’ have ended up being a child killer. I mean really?

We all could but we don’t, most of us anyway. I think people don’t realise just how much child abuse happens and how it does affect so many kids because these excuses people use for them monsters are based on them once being kids? So was Fred west, look at what his kids went through, they’ve managed to not do what Tuskin & Hughes did.

It’s very insulting to say that people who have suffered abuse in childhood are expected to be like it or is it’s used for a reason to why they acted like this.

There is no excuse, people know right from wrong even with mental health problems, do people think anyone with a mental health issue is capable of this?

Some of the sweetest people I know suffer from different mental health issues and I don’t worry that they might torture or kill a child, in fact the opposite, wouldn’t even put mouse traps down when she had some in the attic because she was so upset they would die.

Babies grow up and just because they was once babies and children doesn’t mean they’re forever innocent, we all know right from wrong, we all know not to harm the most innocent in society, but those people make a choice to do it. Not one person has ever harmed a child and not know it’s wrong, it’s proved when they lie about what really happened to cover up.

Sorry to rant but really only on here so people make these excuses and I’m sure it’s just to be controversial.

The human condition is complex. The same thing that protects us emotionally from stress, fear, the weight of the world may be the very thing that removes all trace of empathy or humanity when pushed beyond a point. This is what I believe. Being abused as a child causes empathy to be wiped and the frame of reference for private interactions to be so far shifted from the norm it can never go back. At the same time these damaged individuals are trained in public norms (at school and in any public interaction) so they slip through unnoticed.

It's important to understand why these adults did this. Saying they are simply evil is lazy and unhelpful.

@Hertsgirl10

I was talking about some other threads i’v seen on here. There’s a lot of sympathetic people talking about their poor childhoods and I keep seeing people saying IF Arthur didn’t die then he ‘could’ have ended up being a child killer. I mean really?

We all could but we don’t, most of us anyway. I think people don’t realise just how much child abuse happens and how it does affect so many kids because these excuses people use for them monsters are based on them once being kids? So was Fred west, look at what his kids went through, they’ve managed to not do what Tuskin & Hughes did.

It’s very insulting to say that people who have suffered abuse in childhood are expected to be like it or is it’s used for a reason to why they acted like this.

There is no excuse, people know right from wrong even with mental health problems, do people think anyone with a mental health issue is capable of this?

Some of the sweetest people I know suffer from different mental health issues and I don’t worry that they might torture or kill a child, in fact the opposite, wouldn’t even put mouse traps down when she had some in the attic because she was so upset they would die.

Babies grow up and just because they was once babies and children doesn’t mean they’re forever innocent, we all know right from wrong, we all know not to harm the most innocent in society, but those people make a choice to do it. Not one person has ever harmed a child and not know it’s wrong, it’s proved when they lie about what really happened to cover up.

Sorry to rant but really only on here so people make these excuses and I’m sure it’s just to be controversial.

It’s lovely that you know some sweet and wonderful people who have mental health issues or have had bad childhoods.

Of course nobody is saying those with bad childhoods or poor mental health will be child killers. That’s obvious. Many people (including me) have mentioned their own bad childhoods and how they have not gone on to be violent.

However, there is a proven link between chaotic or violent childhoods and violent or criminal activity as an adult. Denying or ignoring that just makes you look like you don’t really understand the issue.

It doesn’t mean these people shouldn’t be held to account for what they’ve done. Of course they should still be in prison for hopefully a long time. But it can be used to help us understand why these things happen and hopefully improve the situation/help spot it before it’s too late in the next case/try to make societal changes.

The alternative is waiting for the next ‘poor little Arthur’ and making lots of Facebook posts saying ‘rip little Angel’ and ‘rot in hell you vicious evil monsters!’ If you want to bury your head in the sand and wait for that go ahead.

I'm pretty certain nobody has said (and I paraphrase) 'abused children will always be abusers' - that 'people with mental health problems would invariably kill children' or the 'baby Arthur's would grow up to be a murderer' etc. that is so oversimplifying the very considered arguments people have put forward that can almost all be summarised as:

• we need to understand more about why abusers abuse *we need to intervene earlier to save all children from abuse *we need to better find the public services that help investigate and intervene with regard to abuse *that 'baby Arthur' is one victim and many many more are out there crying out for help from us every day and we need to all take responsibility for reporting our concerns that knee jerk reactions such as 'execute abusers is totally unhelpful and does nothing to stop abuse of children *that unless we understand abuse we cannot stop abuse and may be throwing resources in the wrong direction *that hand wringing and saying child abusers deserve no sympathy achieves nothing - it's just a statement that leads to no further action

hertsgirl10

I'm pretty certain nobody has said (and I paraphrase) 'abused children will always be abusers' - that 'people with mental health problems would invariably kill children' or the 'baby Arthur's would grow up to be a murderer' etc. that is so oversimplifying the very considered arguments people have put forward that can almost all be summarised as:

• we need to understand more about why abusers abuse *we need to intervene earlier to save all children from abuse *we need to better find the public services that help investigate and intervene with regard to abuse *that 'baby Arthur' is one victim and many many more are out there crying out for help from us every day and we need to all take responsibility for reporting our concerns that knee jerk reactions such as 'execute abusers is totally unhelpful and does nothing to stop abuse of children *that unless we understand abuse we cannot stop abuse and may be throwing resources in the wrong direction *that hand wringing and saying child abusers deserve no sympathy achieves nothing - it's just a statement that leads to no further action

It is an unusual (public knowledge) case though because of the active involvement of both adults. It's quite a common story when a vulnerable mum meets a man and passively allows them to abuse their kids. Or one parent demonises one biogical child due to some kind of psychological problem. It's beyond awful that Arthur was in a situation where both of them met randomly and had the same total lack of empathy and ability to dehumanise someone. We're talking Hindley/Brady territory here.

I think that posters like jellycatspyjamas and other who have really experienced the reality of abused children are the people to listen to here.

Those who call out ‘evil’ and ‘throw away the key’ are the ones who show a real lack of empathy for children like Arthur and how abuse may affect their lives.

It’s not a stance I would be shouting about.

A couple of years ago I read a newspaper report about the sentencing of a paedophile for horrendous crimes. Quite a distinctive name.
As a child he'd come to my attention as CPO in a primary school briefly (moved school a lot).
His background was terrible. Prostitute, heroin addicted mother with several children, who thought nothing of leaving the children to beg in the city centre, while working. Physical, emotional and probably sexual abuse from an early age.
Do I feel sympathy for him? No his crimes were horrendous.
Do I understand how it could have ended this way? Yes unfortunately I'm not surprised.
Only if you are feeling resilient google Tashan Gallagher.

@Hertsgirl10

I was talking about some other threads i’v seen on here. There’s a lot of sympathetic people talking about their poor childhoods and I keep seeing people saying IF Arthur didn’t die then he ‘could’ have ended up being a child killer. I mean really?

We all could but we don’t, most of us anyway. I think people don’t realise just how much child abuse happens and how it does affect so many kids because these excuses people use for them monsters are based on them once being kids? So was Fred west, look at what his kids went through, they’ve managed to not do what Tuskin & Hughes did.

It’s very insulting to say that people who have suffered abuse in childhood are expected to be like it or is it’s used for a reason to why they acted like this.

There is no excuse, people know right from wrong even with mental health problems, do people think anyone with a mental health issue is capable of this?

Some of the sweetest people I know suffer from different mental health issues and I don’t worry that they might torture or kill a child, in fact the opposite, wouldn’t even put mouse traps down when she had some in the attic because she was so upset they would die.

Babies grow up and just because they was once babies and children doesn’t mean they’re forever innocent, we all know right from wrong, we all know not to harm the most innocent in society, but those people make a choice to do it. Not one person has ever harmed a child and not know it’s wrong, it’s proved when they lie about what really happened to cover up.

Sorry to rant but really only on here so people make these excuses and I’m sure it’s just to be controversial.

I don't know what mental health issues you are referring to but as a former mental health nurse I can assure you that some people who have severe mental illness such as psychosis can be come violent purely due to their illness's,some people are quite literally not in reality due to their illness However there is no evidence that this is the case here and if somebody had killed someone because they were so mentally ill,they would be in a secure hospital not a prison .

Let's hope anybody reading this has any doubts removed that reporting suspected abuse to the appropriate authorities in the right thing to do.

I know of several young people whose future life chances have been altered completely by being 'rescued' from drug addicted abusive parents to find a new and brighter future in the homes of their adopted parents.

The children have to come first and hopefully the abusive parents can access the appropriate treatment alongside whatever punishment is felt appropriate to the case. We need to break the cycles of abuse wherever we find them and learn hope to stop more cycles developing.

@GlitterSquid

I've had some very severe episodes of poor mental health and never, not once have I become a cruel, unkind, harmful person.

I truly believe there is a difference between a mental illness (which can be treated) and personality psychopathies which are dyed in the wool 'how someone is made'. I.E, lacking in empathy etc.

The two are not the same.

I agree with this. I think really horrific cases like this tend to occur when the person already had psychopathic tendencies (ie a lack of empathy, manipulative etc), mixed with external circumstances (bad upbringing themselves etc).

I don't think you can blame mental health alone for this one, or her own childhood.

Because you get dopey do gooders in this world.