Why do people have sympathy for murderers and child abusers?

[Sweetchocolatecandy]

I’ve seen a few comments recently on threads about child abuse (specifically little Arthur) where some posters have said they feel sorry for the likes of murderers such as Tuston as she must have had mental health issues or a rough upbringing herself to make her commit an act like that. Do people really think like this? I suffer from mental health issues but I would never, ever hurt a child and I know people deal with past experiences differently but I think it’s insulting to blame ‘mental health’ for committing abuse and murder.

AIBU?

There is no such thing as 'evil', it's entirely a human construct and does not exist as some sort of entity or force that can influence events or impart some sort of effect on human behaviours. Blaming the actions of humans on 'evil' is illogical, childlike, and fails even the most rudimentary scrutiny.

People claiming that 'I suffer with mental illness and I would never harm a child/I was brought up in an abusive household and would never harm a child' seem to fail to recognise that not all humans who experience the same things turn out exactly the same way. Suffering from a common mental illness, like Clinical Depression for example, is a totally different scenario to someone who has a psycopathic/sociopathic personality disorder. Just because person A grew up in an abusive household and developed into a normal, loving well-balanced adult, does not guarantee that person B will be the same, even with very similar childhoods.

On the matter of 'sympathy'; this is a total misrepresentation. It's not about having 'sympathy' for murderers and abusers as much as it is acknowledging that human beings are a product of their environment. Often this comes along with people either wilfully ignoring or failing to understand the difference between an 'explanation' and an 'excuse', who then go on to accuse others of 'making excuses' for murderers and so on. It's not about excusing behaviours, it's about seeking an explanation for abnormal and atypical behaviours which isn't just some inane mumbo-jumbo about 'evil'.

Evil is handy because it permits people to avoid asking some difficult questions about society and the other human beings who live alongside us. The fact is some people are psycopaths, that makes others uncomfortable, so it's easier to hide behind nebulous and nonsensical notions like 'evil' than it is to wonder why society contains people who will harm and abuse others.

I have zero “sympathy” for her but I also don’t believe she was born evil. I think all new norms are innocent and it is worth thinking about how people become as awful as she did. Thinking about it and trying to understand so it can be prevented is not the same as “having sympathy”.

@GlitterSquid

I've had some very severe episodes of poor mental health and never, not once have I become a cruel, unkind, harmful person.

I truly believe there is a difference between a mental illness (which can be treated) and personality psychopathies which are dyed in the wool 'how someone is made'. I.E, lacking in empathy etc.

The two are not the same.

But they can overlap. Adverse childhood experiences are an enormous factor in brain development. And someone with the personality to commit serious harm might still not ever actually cause it because of lack of triggering opportunities or pure luck.

Whatever there is in tustin Background, arthur was not her dc and she had plenty of options to let him go even in lock down.
She didn't want too.

@GlitterSquid

I've had some very severe episodes of poor mental health and never, not once have I become a cruel, unkind, harmful person.

I truly believe there is a difference between a mental illness (which can be treated) and personality psychopathies which are dyed in the wool 'how someone is made'. I.E, lacking in empathy etc.

The two are not the same.

I used to work as a mental health nurse ,people can and do become violent and aggressive ,when in the grips of an acute psychotic illness ,and it is sometimes purely down to the psychosis ,that said there is absolutely nothing to suggest that is what happened in this case and if there were ,she would be treated in a secure hospital rather than in prison S

@Imdreamingofapeacefulxmas

Whatever there is in tustin Background, arthur was not her dc and she had plenty of options to let him go even in lock down. She didn't want too.

Exactly.. and she carried on abusing him for such a long time and probably never doubted her own actions towards him and just kept it going.. that is an evil human being regardless of mental health issues.. this woman was nice to her own kids by the sound of it, she was capable of that.. so why did she single out Arthur and treat him so badly? Who TF would feel sorry for that woman???

I used to work as a mental health nurse ,people can and do become violent and aggressive ,when in the grips of an acute psychotic illness ,and it is sometimes purely down to the psychosis ,that said there is absolutely nothing to suggest that is what happened in this case and if there were ,she would be treated in a secure hospital rather than in prison

I've always been happy to admit that I'm an absolute shitbag when I'm ill. The polar opposite of my normal personality and behaviours for the vast majority of the time when I am perfectly well, but when I'm having an episode I'm cantankerous, volatile, unstable, incendiary, prone to vocal outbursts, and will become physically destructive and violent.

It's ridiculous to suggest that mental health doesn't explain, and isn't responsible for abnormal behaviours just because you yourself have a diagnosis and don't behave like that. No two human beings are exactly the same.

It's possible to think someone to be a despicable person, but also try to understand their background. If we don't seek to learn, how do we change things?

We shouldn't assume that all child victims of abuse will then go on to be abusers, but equally we can't ignore the link. We need far more investment in mental healthcare for victims (and across society in general).

I think people are simply trying to understand and make sense of how this could happen rather than sympathising with the murderer. As a pp said to say someone is "evil" is too simplistic.
It's so hard for any of us to get our heads around how anyone could hurt a child like this and then lie to try to cover it up.

I like to think I can always have a bit of empathy or at least understanding for most people but I just can't with Tustin and Hughes. What happened to Arthur is horrendous.

I don't believe that humans are born evil, therefore often question what could bring someone to commit atrocious acts against others. I wouldn't consider this sympathetic however, more intrigued as to what life experiences brought them to said act.

We shouldn't assume that all child victims of abuse will then go on to be abusers, but equally we can't ignore the link. We need far more investment in mental healthcare for victims (and across society in general).

Indeed. One of the invidious legacies of childhood abuse is that, in some cases, the children witness not just the abuse, but the inability of adults to withstand stress without lashing out and so they can sometimes struggle to adopt coping mechanisms that they have never experienced.

How do we model resilience and an ability to cope with frustration in an appropriate way?

@Jellycatspyjamas

If Arthur had lived and had grown up to be a violent man, would you not also think back to his tragic childhood with some empathy?

I think it’s very easy to see the harmed, vulnerable child and have concern and empathy for them, to want to rescue them but those children are also the ones that grow to struggle with behaviours, become teens with issues around aggression and addiction, become anti-social adults. The impact of early trauma and neglect can be all pervasive and life long without appropriate intervention and can lead to very harmful behaviours towards others and towards themselves.

The same people who will wring their hands about the death of this child are the same ones complaining about parents getting money to pay for food over lockdown, are the same ones who don’t invite “that child” to play with their child, are the same ones judging teens with anti-social behaviour etc etc. It’s easy to forget these neglected, abused children grow into adults who carry the emotional and psychological scars, which impact every area of their lives. Not all adults who experience abuse go on to hurt others, but people who hurt others have usually been hurt themselves. It’s not an excuse and it doesn’t mean they aren’t accountable for their behaviour but the more we understand, the more we can prevent.

I’ve worked with parents who have really harmed their kids (CP social worker), in every case without exception their own early experiences were equally horrific. Their own children needed to be protected of course, but it’s hard not to have some empathy for and understanding of how the parents got to that point.

I think this is a good and humane post. And I don't think that the 'pure evil' tag is remotely helpful -- it just 'others' the behaviour as if it's something innate.

I don’t think wondering what someone’s mental health/upbringing is/was like is being sympathetic towards them when that person has gone to commit a terrible horrendous crime(s). I have poor mental health myself and had a shifty upbringing, for what it’s worth. I am not a child abuser but I’m not offended by people pondering this.

This.

Just as with physical disability - e.g. Stevie Wonder can travel around, walk, talk, sing, play an instrument etc whereas Stephen Hawking couldn't, but could understand complex scientific concepts far better than almost anybody else (including probably Stevie); but both are/were significantly disabled - there's a wide spectrum of mental illness.

Just because it manifests in one person in one way, that doesn't mean it will affect another person in anything like the same manner.

It can be a contributory and explanatory factor, but is by no means an excuse, when somebody goes from their own individual 'starting point' but then makes terrible decisions from then on.

If a millionaire and a pauper both steal food from a shop, they've both deliberately committed the same, equally-bad crime - but you can much more easily see what may have led the latter to make that conscious decision to do wrong than the former.

I had a shit childhood, lots of physical, mental and emotional abuse and later sexual abuse from my father. I’ve also had mental health problems over the years.

I have a child that I’ve never abused. It’s pretty clear that Tustin and Arthur’s father were enjoying inflicting violence on him. They tortured that child, recorded it and sent videos to each other bragging about what they did. Some people are just evil. Some people should never have children. Some people are devoid of empathy, compassion and care for others.

I think putting it down to a crap childhood is an excuse and a cop out. Unfortunately there will be plenty of other Arthurs. The safeguarding system in the uk is completely broken. I say that as an experienced child abuse investigator.

There's a tendency on threads like this to deliberately oversimplify what others have said until, stripped of all nuance and context, it doesn't really represent what they said at all.

Looking at the other thread on here I do not see anybody 'sympathising' with child abusers. I do see people looking at the background of these perpetrators (the prisons are full of them) and urging the government to put measures and funding in place at earlier stages to stop 'monstrous abusers' developing and to save innocent children from them.

There are many 'baby Arthur's' in our country. We sympathise with them, and are outraged at their treatment. Many 'baby Arthur's' develop into 'adult Arthur's' who have never had a good adult role model in their life. Kept out of school and left to become feral they become the teenagers we often read on Mumsnet about that nobody wants to live next to,

That is not expressing sympathy - it's showing understanding of how the person became 'monstrous'. It's not excusing it, it's explaining it. It does not reduce the danger the 'adult Arthur's' presents to society, but it might direct the appropriate action that needs to be taken in the future to save other children from becoming 'monstrous' and to save us from them.

The baying mob approach serves no purpose. It's sabre rattling of the worst kind. We need to do something different from what we are doing now or every 'baby Arthur' will just become another statistic in a list of many. Every abuser was a child once.

I have no sympathy for murderers or child killers but I don't think many people are born evil or all killers are psychopaths. As previous posters have said that just 'others' them and can make us feel safer as seeing a murderer as a monster makes them less human and less relatable.
I think it is useful to try and understand why people commit awful crimes to try to find ways of stopping it happening again . I don't think it's at all about sympathy or making excuses.
Baby ps mum and Robert Thompson both had terrible childhoods that were very abusive. The cycles are hard to break.
There are external factors as well that contribute. Eg with poor Arthur Lockdown meant he was an invisible child. After Daniel pelka was murdered the serious case review described him an an invisible child and safeguarding practises were changed to try to make sure this couldn't happen again. Had Arthur been attending school or doing normal things like seeing extended family going on outings etc it would be a lot less easy for his abuse to be hidden - it's not making excuses but it is a factor.

One of my kids is a psychiatrist and has worked with extremely violent and abusive people who have committed unthinkable crimes. He says they have often been subject to the very worst abuse and upbringings themselves. Many have learning difficulties, severe mental health issues or addictions (He obviously does not go into any details at all!).

I think you can absolutely dispise someone and want them locked up forever but also feel sorry for them at the same time. I can separate the two thing.

I think putting it down to a crap childhood is an excuse and a cop out

It's not an excuse, but it helps to explain. Many are fortunate not to follow in the parents footsteps - like you - but some don't.

What is certain is that 'baby Arthur's' attract our sympathy, teenage and adult Arthur's attract our outrage.

Practical intervention is all that counts - 'sympathy or outrage' are just emotions that ultimately serve no purposeful outcome.

What is certain is that 'baby Arthur's' attract our sympathy, teenage and adult Arthur's attract our outrage.

Practical intervention is all that counts - 'sympathy or outrage' are just emotions that ultimately serve no purposeful outcome.

Painful to hear, but true.

So many people have mental health battles and rough upbringings but abuse is always a choice.

I know many people who have suffered significant trauma and do not go on to abuse and murder people.

I think that most of the people who contend that childhood and upbringing is a cop out or an excuse would still agree with the proposition that having a healthy, fulfilling and loving childhood home is a factor in producing a healthy, balanced, and normal adult, so why they would claim that dysfunctional homes are not a factor in dysfunctional adults seems not only disingenuous but truly bizarre.

I have some sympathy for her.

I grew up with a cruel nasty sadistic mother.

I am angry all the time now. I am not nice. I am cruel. Because I am in emotional pain.

I do wonder what happened to Emma Tustin to make her like that.

These things don't happen just because of here they happen because of the grandfather that sexually abused her or the father that hit her (guessing).

I bet she was abused as a child. Yes we still have a choice not to hurt a child but I am sure that she was abused as a child herself

@Scoobapro

So many people have mental health battles and rough upbringings but abuse is always a choice.

I know many people who have suffered significant trauma and do not go on to abuse and murder people.

No, that it true. There are a lot of people with the insight to not inflict the abuse they suffered on others. But for lots of reasons, there are always going to be those who lack the understanding, possibly the intelligence, the willpower or whatever combination of personal traits it can take. There are people we would call abusers who are trying to be better and are doing better than their parents did but are still nowhere close to good enough to not be abusive.

Like most of the things we all do, it's such a tangled mix.